Majefty the whole Produce of those Duties H compute the Lofs he may fuftain by the tking of any Revenue from him; but if any Revenue be taken from him, the Parliament we fay is obliged to make it good only according to that Value which was put upon it by the Parliament that granted it, and not according to the increafed Value it may fince have arifen to, by an Abufe which ought, long before this Time, to have been effectually prevented.- With Refpe&t, Sir, to the great Increafe of foreign Brandies and Spirits, that happened in the Year 1733, by the great Importation of French Brandies under the Name of Flemish; I fhall readily grant that they were not imported for immediate Confumption, but in order to remain, and be kept here as a Stock in Hand; nay I muft go further, I must fuppofe, that all or moft of them ftill remain here as a Stock in Hand, I cannot fuppofe that any great Quantity of them has yet been confumed, because the Duties upon foreign Brandies have been as high in the Years 1734, and 1735, as they were in any two Years before 1733. And the Reafon of this may be easily affigned; for as the Merchants at Dunkirk were obliged to make their Importations in 1733, in a great Hurry, they had not Time to fend Nantz and other Places of France for old Brandies, therefore they run in upon us all the new Brandies they had in their Cellars at Dunkirk, but as thefe new Brandies could not be fit to be drank in the Years 1734, or 1735, our Confumption for thefe two Years was fupplied by new Importations of old Brandies from France: From whence we muft reckon that the great Importation in the Year 1733 has no ways leffened the Duties upon foreign Brandies or Spirits for thefe laft two Years, but may very probably do fo for 2 or 3 Years to come; and therefore we muft grant that to include the Increase of thofe Duties in the Year 1733 in our prefent Computation, is reckoning all the Advantage happened by that cafual Importation to the Account of the Civil Lift, in order to bring a double Lofs upon the Sinking Fund; for that facred Fund is to be charged with near 4000l. a Year, during his Majefty's Life, more than it would have been charged with, if no fuch extraordinary Importation had ever happened; and by that extraordinary Importation, and the Decreafe in the Duties on Foreign Brandies, which must thereby be occafioned for feveral Years to come, that Fund to which thofe Duties are now to be appropriated muft lofe a very confiderable Sum. Arlaft the Question being put for filling up the Blank with the Sum of 43,000l. it was upon a Divifion carried in the Negative Ey 211 to 109, and then the Question being pue for filling up the Blank with the Sum of 70,000?. it was carried in the Affirmative without a Divifion. On Wednesday, April 14. the Amendments made by the Committee to the Bill were reported to the Honfe, and all read a first Time; after which most of them were read a fecond Time, and agreed to by the House, without any Debate; but when they came to the abovementioned Claufe for giving 70,000l. to the Civil-Lift, a Propofition was made for altering that Claufe, and for fettling it in fuch a Manner, that if the whole hereditary and temporary Excife fhould in any one Tear after that Time fall foort of what it had produced upon a Medium to be computed from his Majefty's Acceffion to that Time, that Deficiency fhould be made good by the very next Seffion of Parliament. This occasioned a new Debate, in which the Arguments for the Propofition, and against the Claufe as it food, were in Substance as follows, viz, 7 the Claufe as it ftands at we are to make a new Grant to the Civil Lift of 70,000l. a Year during his Majesty's Life: Now there can be but two Reasons for C our making this new Grant. It must be either, because we fuppofe that the prefent Amount of the Civil Lift Revenue will be diminished in a Sum equal to 70,000l. a Year, by the Regulation we are about to make; or it must be because we fuppofe that the prefent Amount of the Civil-Lift Revenue, is not fufficient for fupporting his Majefty's Houfhold and Family, and that therefore we ought to grant an Addition of 70,000 1, a Year to that Revenue, I may fay, in all Time to come. Thefe are the only two Reafons that can be affigned, and if both of them appear to be without any Foundation, we cannot furely agree to this Claufe as it now ftands, made Spirits gradually increafed, and accordingly the Excife on Beer and Ale gradually decreased, fo that in the Year ending at MidSummer 1729, the former produced 104,3731A whereas the latter produced but 963,763.1. which was 131,1907. less than it produced in the Year ending at Midfummer 1725. B D E F To fuppofe that the prefent Amount of the Civil-Lift Revenue will be diminished in a Sum equal to 70,000l. by the Regulation we are about to make, is contrary to Fact, and contrary to Experience: For fuppofing the CivilLift's Share in the Duties on Spirituous Liquors, upon a juft Computation, does amount to 70,000l. Yearly, yet we may be convinced by Experience, that the Confumption of Beer and Ale will always increase in Proportion as the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors decreafes; and as the Civil-Lift has a much greater Share of the Duties on Beer and Ale, than it has of the Duties on Spirituous Liquors; it is, in my Opinion, certain, that the Civil-Lift will get an Increase of more than 70,000!, a Year by that Increafe in the Duties upon Beer and Ale, which will be occafioned by the G Regulation propofed by this Bill.To confirm what I have faid, Sir, Let us look into the Accounts that are upon our Table, and from them we fhall find, that the Amount of the Duties upon Beer and Ale has conftantly and regularly decreased, as the Amount of the Duties upon Spirituous Liquors has increafed for thefe feveral Years backwards. In H the Year ending at Midfummer 1725, the Excife on Beer and Ale produced 1,094,9531. in the fame Year the Duties on home-made Spirits produced but 88,622/. From that Time to Midfummer 1729, half a Year before the late Gin-At took place, the Duties on home In the Year 1729, the late famous Act against Geneva, and other Compound Spirits, was paffed; and tho' that Act was evaded by the Sale of a new Sort of Spirit call'd Parliament-Brandy, yet, ineffectual as it was, it diminished a little the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors, and confequently the Produce of the Duties on fuch Liquors; fo that in the Year ending at Midfummer 1732, they produced but roo,025, which was 43481. lefs than they produced in 1729. But as to the Excife upon Beer and Ale, what was the Confequence? As foon as that Act paffed, that Excife began to increase, so that in the Year ended at Midfummer 1732, it produced 1,071,2407. which is 107.4771. more than it produced in 1729.Again, Sir, upon the Repeal of the late Gin-Act, the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors began to increafe, and confequently the Produce of the Duties on fuch Liquors, fo that in the Year ended at Midfummer laft they produced 154,0941. and the Confequence with refpect to the Excife on Beer and Ale we find to be the fame; for in the Year ended at Midfummer laft, it produced but 1,021,370l. which is 49,870% less than it produced in 1732. From all which, Sir, I think it is as plain as Figures can make it, that the Confumption of Beer and Ale has hitherto always decreafed or increased, as the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors has increafed or decreafed; and as that has been the Cafe in all Time paft, we must fuppofe it will be the Cafe in all Time to come. This then being laid down as a Maxim confirmed by Experience, let us confider how greatly, I may almoft fay, how entirely the Confumption, not only of home-made Spirits, but of all Spirits, will be diminished by the Bill now before us, and what an Increafe that will make in the Confumption of Beer and Ale; but that I may not be accufed of any extravagant Calculations, I fhall fuppofe that the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors may hereafter be but one Third lefs than it was before; the natural Inference from thence is, that the Confumption of Beer and Ale will be one Third more than it was, and confequently that the Excife on Beer and Ale will, from the Time this Bill takes place, produce about one Third more Yearly, than it produced in the Year ended at Midfummer laft, which is 340,456 1. But till further, that I may be as modeft as poffible in my Calculations, I fhall fuppofe, that upon the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors growing lefs by one Third, the Confumption of Beer and Ale thould increafe but one Sixth more than it was before; even by this Suppofition there must be a Yearly Increafe in the Excife on Beer and Ale, of one Sixth more than it produced in the Year end ed at Midfummer laft, which is 170,228 1. Million Yearly, and thofe Duties fhould by any Accident produce hereafter but 850,000l. Yearly, the Parliament, according to the prefen: Eftablishment of the Civil-Lift, would not be obliged to make good so much as One Shilling of that Decreafe; whereas if they fhould hereafter produce but 750,000l. Yearly, or any Sum fefs than 800,000l. the Par liament ftands obliged to make good whatever they may produce Yearly less than that 800,000l. fo that there is at least this Difference between the 800,000 1. EftablishBment, and the 200,000. Surplus, that the Parliament now ftands obliged to make good the 800,000. Eftablishment, but does not now ftand obliged to make good One Shilling of the 200,000l. Surplus; therefore it can by no Means at prefent be faid, that the CivilLift has as good a Right to the Surplus, as it has to the Establishment: But, Sir, if we agree to the Propofition now made, the CivilLift will then really have as good a Right to the prefent Surplus, whatever it may be, as it has to the Eftablishment of 800,000 7. Yearly; for which Reafon, if this Propofition be not agreed to, I must conclude, that the 70,000l. appropriated to the Civil-Lift by the Claufe as it itands at prefent, is defigned as a new additional Revenue to Civil-Lift, and not as a Compenfation for Lofs it may fuftain by the Regulation we are about to make.This, Sir, leads me naturally to the next, and the only other Reafon that can be affigned or fuppofed, for our agreeing to the Claufe as it now ftands, which is, because we fuppofe, that the prefent Amount of the Civil-Lift Revenue is not fufficient for fupporting his Majefty's Houfhold and Family, and that therefore we ought to grant an Addition of 70.000?. a Year to that Revenue, during his Majesty's Life at leaft, but I may fay in all Time to come; for I do not find an Inftance, where lefs has been granted to a Succeffor, than had been formerly enjoyed by his Ancestor. Now, Sir, as to this Reafon, whatever the Gentlemen, who are immediately concerned in the Difpofal of the Civil-Lift Revenue, may fuppofe, I am very certain his Majefty does not fuppofe any fuch Thing; becaufe, if he had ever iuppofed any fuch Thing, he would certainly have communicated the fame to his Parliament, either by a Speech from the Throne, or by a folemn Meffage, and would have defired fuch an Addition from them, as he thought neceffary. There is no other Way by which his Majefty can communicate any fuch Want to his Parliament, and until he does it in this Manner, no Gentleman, as a Member of this Houfe, can fuppofe, nay, as a Trustee for the People he is bound not to fuppoofe, that his Majefty ftands in need of any Addition to his Civil-Lift Revenue, or to any other Revenue: This therefore can be no Reafon for us, as Members of this Houfe, to agree to the Claufe as it ftands now before us, and I hope this Houfe will never, without very ftrong and publick Reafons, take fuch a large Sum of Money from that Fund which is appropriated G This Difficulty, Sir, may be prevented by our for for the Payment of our Debts, and for freeing the People from that heavy Load of Taxes they now groan under. The Answer was in Substance as follows, viz. T D 70,000l. a Year, and give nothing in Return but an uncertain Produce, which may for what we know be worth little or nothing; for even by the very Calculations that have been mentioned of the other Side, it appears that the Excife on Beer and Ale does not always increase or decrease in Proportion as the Duties on Spirituous Liquors decrease or increase. In the Year 1729, the Duties on the latter produced but 104,373 4. whereas in the Year 1735 they produced 154,0941. from whence we ought to conclude, that the Produce of the Excife on Beer and Ale was much higher in the Year 1729, than it was in the Year 1735, yet we find that in 1729 the Excife produced but 963,763 7. and that in the Year ended at Midfummer laft, 1735, it produced 1,021,370l. which is 57,6077. more than it produced in 1729.- This fhews, Sir, that the Proportion between the Increase or Decreafe of the one, and the Decrease or Increase of the other, does not always hold; and in Fact it has certainly always been, and will always be fo; the Increase or Decrease of the Excife upon Beer or Ale, as well as the In creafe or Decrease of the Duties on Spirituous Liquors depend upon fo many other Accidents, that they cannot depend entirely upon ene another, nor can any Man guess at the Increafe of the one, from any Knowledge he may have of the Decreafe of the other. I fhail mention only one Accident, which was, I believe, the chief Reafon of the Decrease of the Excife on Beer and Ale in the Year 1729. It happened in that Year, the Price of all Sorts of Corn, especially Male was much higher than it was for feveral Years before or fince,, and for this Reafon we may fuppofe none of our Brewers brewed any more Beer or Ale in that Year, than what was abfolutely neceffary for the immediate Confumption; none of then brewed any large Quantity for Staling, as they call it; whereas in a Year when the Price is low, they all brew great Quantities, which they keep by them as a Stock in Hand, to be ready to answer any future Demand. This is more particularly the Cafe with refpect to thofe Sorts of Strong Beer or Ale which the Brewer may keep feveral Years in his Cellars, and is generally the better, the longer it is kept; and to this Accident, I believe, we ought chiefly to afcribe the great Decrease in the Excife on Beer and Ale in the Year 1729.-Sir, I am fo far from thinking that the Increafe or Decrease in the Confumption of Beer and Ale depends upon the Decrease or Increase in the Confumption of Spirituuos Liquors, that I believe they generally increafe or decrease together; it is not the Confumption of either of thefe Liquors that is neceffary for the Support of Nature which raifes the Excife to its prefent Height: It is the Confumption occa fioned by the Debauches and Extravagancies of the People, and thefe Debauches and Extravagancies depend upon fo many Accidents that it is impoffible to account for them in Time paft, or to guess at the Confumption that may HE Queftion now before us, Sir, has A been already fo fully debated, that we need not go about to feek for any other Reafon for agreeing to it, than that which is the true one; and which has been already fet in fo clear a Light, that I am surprised to hear any new Difficulties ftarted, or rather, I fhould Lay, thofe Difficulties renewed, which have before been fully removed. The true and the B only Reafon for our agreeing to the Claufe as It now ftands is, that by the very preceding Clause we are to take from the Civil-Lift, and appropriate to the Aggregate Fund, a Reve nue, which, upon a Medium fince his Majefty's Acceffion, has brought in 70,000l. a Year: This being the true State of the Cafe, is it not evident that the Civil-Lift will lofe at leaft 70,000l. a Year by the Regulation we are now about to make? And as we are to take that Yearly Sum from the Civil-Lift, and appropriate it to the Aggregate Fund, is it not molt juft and reafonable, that we fhould charge the Aggregate Fund with the Payment of that Sum Yearly to the Civil-Lift? 'Tis true, as the Produce of the Duties upon Spirituous Liquors will certainly be very much diminished by this new Regulation, the Aggregate Fund may not perhaps receive fo much Yearly by the Share the Civil-Lift formerly had in those Duties; but this fignifies nothing to the prefent Question, for if we were to take off any of our Taxes now appropriated to the CivilLift, or to the Payment of the Intereft grow-E ing due upon any of our Debts, we fhould be obliged to charge the Aggregate Fund, or fome Part of the Sinking Fund, with the Deficiency thereby occafioned, tho' that Fund Thould get nothing to anfwer the new Charge laid upon it- But we are told, Sir, That if the Civil-Lift be a Lofer by taking from it its Share in the Duties on Spirituous Liquors, that Lofs will be fully made good by the Increafe in the Excife on Beer and Ale, which will naturally be occafioned by the new Regulation we are now about to make. Sir, whatever Increafe may happen hereafter in the Excife on Beer and Ale, the Civil-Lift has a Right to its Share of that Increase without any new Grant from us, nor can we take that Right from it without doing a manifeft Injuftice; fo that it appears to me a little extraor dinary to fay, that the Lofs of that Right the Civil-Lift now has to a Share of the Duties on Spirituous Liquors, will be compenfated, or made good, by another Right it was before intitled to, and which we neither could give nor take from it. But, Sir, to wave this Argument for the prefent, and to fuppofe that a Right which we do not give, may be a Com penfation for a Right which we actually take away, I cannot think it would be just in us to take from the Civil-Lift a certain Revenue of G be B The Reply was to this Effect, viz. 1 IR, From fome of the Arguments how made ufe of I think we may already be gin to fee the Truth of what was foretold inf many A the Beginning of this Debate. We were then foretold, Sir, that if it fhould hereafter appear that the Civil Lift had got 200,000l. a Year additional Revenue by the Increase of the Excife on Beer and Ale occafioned by this Bill, the Parliament would never be able to lay hold of any Part of that Increafe, or even to reaffume the 70,000l. Annuity we are now to grant upon a Suppofition that the Civil Lift will get nothing by any fuch Increase of the Excife on Beer and Ale. The Truth of this, I fay, Sir, begins already to appear; for the Hon. Gentleman has told us, that by increafing the Confumption of Beer and Ale, and confe quently the Excife on thofe Liquors, we give nothing to the Civil Lift but what it had be fore a Right to, whereas by diminishing, or taking from the Civil Lift its Share in the Duties on fpirituous Liquors, we take from it what it had formerly a Right to, and that therefore we cannot pretend to compenfate a Right which we actually take away, by a Right which we do not give. This I think is the Argument, and if this can be justly adD mitted as an Argument for our agreeing to this Claufe, it must always be a much stronger againt the Parliament's ever pretending to take any Part of the Increase that may be occafioned in the Excife, or to reaffume the 70,000l. Annuity we are now to establish. be thereby occafioned in Time to come. But I am perfuaded that nothing will tend more to the preventing thofe Debauches and Extravagancies in Time to come, and to the rendering our People fober, frugal and induftrious, than the removing out of their Way Temptations they are now expofed to by the great Number of Gin-Shops, and other Places for the Retail of Spirituous Liquors; for before a Man becomes Huftered with Beer or Ale, he has Time to reflect, and to confider the many Misfortunes to which he expofeth himfelf and his Family by idling away his Time at an Alehoufe; whereas any Spirituous Liquor in a Moment deprives him of all Refletion, fo that he either gets quite drunk at Gin-Shop, or runs to the Alehoufe, and there finishes his Debauch, or at leaft empties his Pocket. From hence, Sir, I think it moft natural to conclude, that the Bill How under our Confideration, if it paffes into a Law, will diminish the Confumption of Beet and Ale, C and confequently the Produce of the Excife on thofe Liquors, as well as the Confumption of Spirituous Liquors, and the Produce of the Duty on them.I come now, Sir, to the Propofition this Day made to us, which I muft fay I look on as a very extraordinary one; becaufe it would entirely alter the very Nature of that Grant of the Civil-Lift, which was made to his Majefty in the first Year of his Reign; and I wonder how Gentlemen can propofe making any fuch Alteration in that Grant without his Majefty's Confent: I think they should at leaft in Decency have ushered it in with a Motion for an Addrefs to his Majefty, humbly to pray that he would give his Confent to their making fuch an Alteration; for by the Establishment of the Civil-Lift as it ftands at prefent, and as it was granted to his Majefty in the first Year of his Reign, he is to have during his Life the Produce of all thofe Duties then appropriated to that Revenue without any Account; yet now it is modeftly propofed, that he fhould from henceforth be obliged to give an Account every Year to Parliament of the Produce of every one of thofe Duties, or otherwife to lofe at least a Part of the Benefit of that Establishment was intended, and was actually granted to him by Parliament in the first Year of his Reign: Having thus, Sir, put this Propofition in its true and genuine Light, I am convinced I need not give the Houfe the Trouble of any Argument to fhew that we cannot come to any fuch Refolution, or agree to fuch a Claufe in any Bill, without his Majefty's Confent, and as I have fhewn that there is no Certainty that the Civil-Lift will be a Gainer by the Increase of the Excife on Beer and Ale, but on the contrary,that there is à Probability that it will be a Lofer by the Decrease of that Exeife, I think there arifes from thence a fuffici- H ent Reafon for our making good to his Maiefty the Lofs he muft fuftain by taking from the Civil-Lift its Share in the Duties on Spirituous Liquors, therefore I fhall add no more, but declare that I am moft heartily for agreeing to the Claufe as it now ftands, -Altho' I have never yet admitted, nor can admit, that the Civil Lift's Share in the Duties on fpirituous Liquors ought to be com puted at 70,000l. yet now, Sir, I fhall take it for granted, becaufe it fignifies nothing to the prefent Difpute; for the principal Queftion now in Difpute I take to be, Whether the Civil Lift has fuch an abfolute Right to thatShare, that we can make no Regulations whereby the Value of that Share may be di minifhed, without granting a Compenfation from fome other Fund? And the next Quef tion I take to be, Whether, if by the fame Regulation the Value of the Civil Lift's Share in fome other Duties or Excifes be increased, we may not in Juftice and Equity infift upon it, that the Advantage occafloned in the one Cafe may be admitted, fo far as it will a mount, as a Compenfation for the Lofs in the other.As to the first Queftion, Sir, 'tis true, the Crown has a Right to the whole Produce of certain Duties appropriated to the Civil Lift, but that Right is to be confidered in a twofold Refpect. The Crown has a Right to the whole Produce of all thofe Duties, fo far as may amount to 800,000/ Establishment, without being fubject to any Accident or Contingency whatsoever, because if the Produce fhould not amount to that Sum yearly, the Parliament ftands obliged to make it good, and if the whole Produce of thofe Duties (hall amount to more than 300,000l. the Crown has likewife a Right to the Surplus, but that Right |