The Parliamentary Debates

alternative you place before the Government by this proposal? If you defeat the Government, which you will not do, you on that side of the House, many of whom during the war I have heard making attacks on the Kaffirs and speaking about their position in the social scale in language which I will not now recapitulate-you will be placing in the hands of Kaffirs the whole monopoly of labour in South Africa, and by doing so you will make the Kaffirs the dictators of the pace at which civilisation should proceed in that country. Do not let it be supposed that by introducing other labour you are handicapping the whites. You are enabling the whites to find subsistence. It is not I who say this. The hon. Member for Camberwell last night said that shiploads of whites were coming away from South Africa, and the other day, when 3,000 or 4,000 Kaffirs left their work on the railways, 600 or 700 whites superintending them had immediately to be dismissed. Nobody has spoken more strongly upon that than the right hon. Member for Aberdeen. He says

labourers than at present. What is the Chinese labour, and in Africa the proposal is to have temporary labour under definite restrictions. We have heard very tall talk with regard to this labour. The Member for Camberwell said that the British soldier would tear off his medals sooner than see the Chinaman performing his religious observances in his own compound; and we have been told that we are establishing a moral pest spot, and a moral cancer. Some years ago a statesman said that the Australian Colonies taxed the Chinaman and that that was protection pure and simple. They taxed him not because it was the desire of an enlightened race not to associate with a nation of a less degree of enlightenment-not on account of the Chinaman's vices, but because of his virtues, because he did more work for the money, because he consumed less liquor. That is the statement of Mr. Gladstone. It is ten years since the voice of Mr. Gladstone was heard in this House, but I think the echo of these sentiments will be more powerful tonight than some of the utterances to which we have listened. We are asked to delay this Ordinance. My right hon. friend has given some most specific pledges as to the regulations, and those pledges will be specifically observed. What is the Ordinance? The Ordinance is an Ordinance of the Transvaal Legislative Council which the Council has made and the Council can revok by it; and if hon. Australia to the introduction of Chinese Members opposite upset the Government labour and the objection in South Africa. they can themselves reconsider the There is no parallel between the two cases subject. When self-government is given except this that both countries are to the Transvaal, which hon. Gentleman British colonies. In Australia it is a opposite regard as an early expedient, question of the coolie competing against the colony will itself be able, at any the white man; in Africa it is a question moment it pleases, to deal with this Ordinof the yellow man competing against the ance. It is hedged about with every reblack man. In Australia the experience striction which philanthropy can suggest, has been of unrestricted permanent and I think this House would exercise an

“All hard labour, all unskilled labour, is, and must be, done by the blacks. The coloured man is indispensable to the white man. He is a necessary part of the economic machinery of the country, whether for mining or for manufacture, for tillage or for ranching.”

An entirely false economic parallel has been drawn between the objection in

unwise discretion if it placed any difficulty in the way of the Government to-night. Have we not too often in the past stepped in here to change that which those on the spot advised us to do in connection with our colonies. This is a time when the House should disregard sentimental forebodings which have no foundation, which are in fact appeals to prejudice that may do for the platform, but are too thin for the House of Commons. The House should now express its determination to place the labour question in the Transvaal on such a footing as may tend to the civilising of that colony, and so avoid the difficulties which have been clearly pointed out, and the effects of which may be clearly foreseen.

*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS

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Name," said: I want to be respectful to the House, but this is a matter on which I feel very strongly. I want to ask you, Sir, whether the Government intend by moving the closure to make it impossible for me to speak.

*MR. SPEAKER: The duty is thrown

DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's) moved on the Chair of accepting or rejecting the

that the Question be now put.

MR. CROOKS, addressing the Speaker amid loud cries of "Order," said he desired to be heard.

Motion for the closure after it has been proposed. I am sure the hon. Member does not wish to show any disrespect to the Chair. The closure has been moved.

MR. CROOKS rose again, but was, as

*MR. SPEAKER: The Question is that before, received with loud cries of

the Question be now put.

MR. CROOKS again attempted to speak, beginning with the words "Surely, Mr. Speaker," but the remainder of the sentence was lost in cries of "Order." Speaking in a loud voice, which was

"Order," and some cries of "Go on "
from his
his supporters. He, however,
quickly resumed his seat.

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:-Ayes, 330; Noes,

audible above the clamour, the hon. 172. (Division List No. 3.)

Bailey, James (Walworth)
Bain, Colonel James Robert
Baird, John George Alexander
Balcarres, Lord
Baldwin, Alfred
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Bartley, Sir George C. T.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin
Beach, Rt.Hn.Sir Mich. Hicks
Beckett, Ernest William
Bignold, Arthur
Bigwood, James
Bill, Charles

Blyndell, Colonel Henry
Boland, John

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-
Boulnois, Edmund
Bousfield, William Robert
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.
Brymer, William Ernest
Bull, William James
Burdett-Coutts, W.
Burke, E. Haviland-
Butcher, John George
Campbell, Rt.Hn. J.A(Glasgow
Campbell, J.H.M(Dublin Univ.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)
Carlile, William Walter
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Cautley, Henry Strother
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire
Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Chamberlain, RtHn. J.A(Worc
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Chapman, Edward
Charrington, Spencer
Clancy, John Joseph

Coates, Edward Feetham

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Donelan, Captain A.
Doogan, P. C.

Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Duffy, William J.
Duke, Henry Edward
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Hart
Esmonde, Sir Thomas
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)
Faber, George Denison (York)
Fardell, Sir T. George
Farrell, James Patrick
Field, William
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas
Fison, Frederick William
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon
Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Flavin, Michael Joseph
Flower, Sir Ernest
Flynn, James Christopher
Forster, Henry William
Foster, P. H. (Warwick, S.W.
Fyler, John Arthur
Galloway, William Johnson
Gardner, Ernest
Garfit, William
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Gilhooly, James

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin&Nairn)
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)
Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets
Gore, Hn.G. R. C. Orms.-(Salop
Goschen, Hn. George Joachim
Goulding, Edward Alfred
Graham, Henty Robert
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Greene, SirE.W(B'rySEdm'nds

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

Coddington, Sir William
Cogan, Denis J.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Compton, Lord Alwyne
Condon, Thomas Joseph
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Cripps, Charles Alfred
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile
Cubitt, Hon. Henry
Cust, Henry John C.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Davenport, William Bromley-
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)
Delany, William

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)
Dewar, Sir T.R(Tower Hamlets
Dickson, Charles Scott
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Grenfell, William Henry
Gretton, John
Greville, Hon. Ronald
Hain, Edward

Hall, Edward Marshall
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Hambro, Charles Eric
Hamilton, RtHnLord G(Midd'x
Hamilton, Marq.of (L'nd'nderry
Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)
Hare, Thomas Leigh
Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Haslett, Sir James Horner
Hayden, John Patrick
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)
Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.
Heaton, John Heniker
Helder, Augustus
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Hickman, Sir Alfred
Hoare, Sir Samuel
Hobhouse, RtHn H. (Somers't, E
Hope, J.F(Sheffield, Brightside

Hoult, Joseph

Houston, Robert Paterson
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil
Hudson, George Bickersteth
Hunt, Rowland
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.)
Jameson, Major J. Eustance
Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Joyce, Michael

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H
Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.
Kerr, John

Keswick, William
Kimber, Henry
Knowles, Sir Lees
Laurie, Lieut.-General
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Lawson, John G. (Yorks., N.R.)
Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)
Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Lowe, Francis William
Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'uth
Lundon, W.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Macdona, John Cumming
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Maconochie, A. W.
MacVeagh, Jeremiah
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
M'Calmont, Colonel James
M'Hugh, Patrick, A.
M'Kean, John

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Malcolm, Ian

Manners, Lord Cecil
Martin, Richard Biddulph
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Maxwell, RtHnSir H.E(Wigt❜n
Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriessh-
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton
Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G
Mitchell, William (Burnley)
Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow
Morrell, George Herbert
Morrison, James Archibald
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Mount, William Arthur
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Murphy, John
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Hurray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Myers, William Henry

Nicholson, William Graham
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
O'Dowd, John

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
O'Malley, William
O'Mara, James

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Parker, Sir Gilbert

Peel, Hn. Wm. Rob. Wellesley
Percy, Earl
Pierpoint, Robert

Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Plummer, Walter R.
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Power, Patrick Joseph
Pretyman, Ernest George
Purvis, Robert
Pym, C. Guy
Randles, John S.
Rankin, Sir James
Ratcliff, R. F.
Reddy, M.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Redmond, William (Clare)
Reid, James (Greenock)
Remnant, James Farquharson

Ridley, Hn. M.W.(Stalybridge) | Thornton, Percy M.
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Roche, John

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Royds, Clement Molyneux
Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Sandys, Lt. Col. Thos. Myles
Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

Sharpe, William Edward T.
Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Smith, H.C.(North'mb.Tynesid
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Smith, Hon, W. F. D. (Strand)
Spear, John Ward

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Stewart, Sir Mark J. M‘Taggart
Stock, James Henry
Stone, Sir Benjamin
Stroyan, John

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Sullivan, Donal

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Talbot, Rt. Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.
Thorburn, Sir Walter

Tollemache, Henry James
Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Tuff, Charles

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Vincent, Col.Sir C.E.H(Sheff'd
Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Walker, Col. William Hall
Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H
Wanklyn, James Leslie
Warde, Colonel C. E.
Webb, Colonel William George
Welby, Lt. Col. A.C.E(Taunton
Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Willox, Sir John Archibald
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)
Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)
Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Wylie, Alexander
Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Young, Samuel

TELLERS FOR THE AYES-Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Austin, Sir John

Barlow, John Emmott
Barran, Rowland Hirst

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.
Bell, Richard

Black, Alexander William
Brand, Hon. Arthur G.
Broadhurst, Henry
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Burns, John

Burt, Thomas
Buxton, Sydney Charles
Caldwell, James
Cameron, Robert
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Causton, Richard Knight
Cawley, Frederick
Channing, Francis Allston
Churchill, Winston Spencer
Cremer, William Randal
Crombie, John William
Crooks, William

Duncan, J. Hastings
Edwards, Frank
Elibank, Master of
Ellice, Capt E.C(S. Andrw's Bghs
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)
Emmott, Alfred

Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert
Fenwick, Charles

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.
Fuller, J. M. F.

Goddard, Daniel Ford
Grant, Corrie

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Hammond, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydv. Harmsworth, R. Leicester Harwood, George

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Helme, Norval Watson Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.
Holland, Sir William Henry
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Hutchinson, D. Charles Fredk.
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Jacoby, James Alfred
Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Jordan, Jeremiah

Kearley, Hudson, E.
Kilbride, Denis
Kitson, Sir James
Labouchere, Henry
Lambert, George
Langley, Batty

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W
Llayland-Barratt, Francis
Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington
Leigh, Sir Joseph
Leng, Sir John
Levy, Maurice

Lewis, John Herbert
Lloyd-George, David
Lough, Thomas

MacDonnell, Dr, Mark A.
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
M'Crae, George
M'Kenna, Reginald

M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin,
Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.
Mooney, John J.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Morley, Rt.Hn. John (Montrose
Moulton, John Fletcher
Newnes, Sir George
Nolan, Co. John P. (Galway, N|
Norman, Henry

Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Nussey, Thomas Willans
Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)
Partington, Oswald
Paulton, James Mellor
Pirie, Duncan V.
Priestley, Arthur
Rea, Russell

Reckitt, Harold James
Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Rickett, J. Compton
Rigg, Richard

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Robson, William Snowdon

Roe, Sir Thomas
Rose, Charles Day
Runciman, Walter
Russell, T. W.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Schwann, Charles E.
Seely, Maj. J.E.B(Isleof Wight
Shackleton, David James
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Shipman, Dr. John G.
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Slack, John Bamford
Sloan, Thomas Henry
Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Soares, Ernest J.
Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R(Northants
Stevenson, Francis S.
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Strachey, Sir Edward
Tennant, Harold John
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
Thomson, F. W. (Kork, W. R.)
Tillet, Louis John

Tomkinson, James
Toulmin, George
Trekelyan, Charles Philips
Ure, Alexander
Wallace, Robert
Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)
Weir, James Galloway
White, George (Norfolk)
White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk,Mid.
Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Wood, James
Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
Yoxall, James Henry

TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Austin, Sir John

Barlow, John Emmott

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.
Bell, Richard

Black, Alexander William
Boland, John

Broadhurst, Henry
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Burke, E. Haviland
Burns, John

Burt, Thomas

Buxton, Sydney Charles
Caldwell, James

Cameron, Robert

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Causton, Richard Knight
Cawley, Frederick

Channing, Francis Allston
Churchill, Winston Spencer
Clancy, John Joseph
Cogan, Denis J.

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan
Delany, William
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Donelan, Captain A.
Doogan, P. C.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Duffy, William J.
Duncan, J. Hastings
Edwards, Frank
Elibank, Master of

Ellice, Capt E.C(SAndrw's Bghs
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)
Emmott, Alfred
Esmonde, Sir Thomas
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert
Farrell, James Patrick
Fenwick, Charles

Fuller, J. M. F.
Gilhooly, James

Goddard, Daniel Ford
Grant, Corrie

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Hain, Edward
Hammond, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William
Hardie, J. Keir (M'rth'r T'dvil)
Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Harwood, George
Hayden, John Patrick
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.
Helme, Norval Watson
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)
Holland, Sir William Henry
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Jacoby, James Aitred
Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Jordan, Jeremiah

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Joyce, Michael

Ffrench, Peter
Field, William

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond
Flavin, Michael Joseph
Flynn, James Christopher
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kearley, Hudson E.

Kilbride, Denis

Kitson, Sir James

Labouchere, Henry Lambert, George Langley, Batty

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