provided every important ship of the Fleet with new six-power telescopes, which was double the power of the telescopes formerly in use. These new telescopes for the China Fleet were now on their way. There had been a good deal of discussion lately on the question of sights, and he thought it would be proper for him to say that it was a misapprehension to suppose that if they had the range accurately, if they had the cross wires of the sight upon the object, and if the sight of the gun was properly laid, the shot was bound to hit the mark. That was not the case. There were many factors which upset these calculations, such as the temperature, the exact character of the cordite, and the number of shots which had been fired from the gun. A gun had a life of so many shots, and the firing of each shot involved a certain loss in the velocity of the next shot that was fired. It was out of the power of any gunner or mechanician to deal with these factors, and if, at a range of 4,000 yards, these factors worked in the same direction they were capable of making a difference of 300 yards in the fall of the shot. That was an important point, because it showed that the actual adjustment of the sight to the situation of the moment was a matter of the greatest importance, and that what was required in the sight was that it should be accurately adjusted to the gun, and that it should be quickly and easily adjustable by those who were using the gun. MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) asked, on the question of training, whether the "Northampton" class of boys, who were taken at the age of eighteen or nineteen, was being continued. *MR. PRETYMAN said that class was being continued and he believed it was satisfactory. The next question was that of the victualling of the Fleet. The new rations which had been sanctioned had been in force in the training ships for twelve months. They had been found tremely satisfactory and had been much appreciated. The new rations consisted of coffee, condensed milk, jam, preserved vegetables, and a larger amount of preserved meat. The new rations had been in force in the Fleet for five months, and though there was no doubt that they were considerably appreciated, he could not say that they had been taken up to the extent that had been hoped and expected. Apparently many of the men regarded the new rations as an admirable means of increasing their savings, because they allowed a considerable quantity of the rations to lapse, took up the money, and purchased what they required from the canteen. The coffee, however, had been well taken up and was very much appreciated. The question was likely to be asked whether something might not be done to provide the men of the Fleet with soft bread instead of biscuits. The Admiralty had taken up that matter and a start was being made. 66 They had ordered two sets of plant for making and baking bread and installed them in the "King Edward VII." and the Suffolk." In the Estimates for 1904-5 money was taken for the purchase of ten additional sets of plant, which would be installed in four battleships of the "King Edward VII." class and six cruisers of the "Devonshire" class. If the experimant was successful no doubt the system would be extended. There certainly had been some complaints in the Fleet of the quality of the cooking on board the ships. That was a difficult question. The Admiralty did not wish to increase the number of non-combatants on board ship, but they were desirous of doing everything they could to give instruction in cookery. There were now three three home ports; up to recently there schools of cookery, one at each of the was only one at Portsmouth. there was the point raised by the hon. Member for Devonport last year, namely, the question of manufacture at the victualling yards which had been carefully considered, and it had been decided to cease the manufacture of oatmeal, flour and suet. The manufacture of biscuits and chocolate would be continued. Then He now came to the progress of construction voted. exThe policy and the progress of construction and reconstruction were so very fully stated and the names of the ships affected were given in such detail in the statement of the First Lord, that he would only be there. It was therefore decided to lay these wearying the House if he repeated the vessels down in the dockyards. Certainly facts set forth there; but he might recall it had been hoped at the time his right the fact that the total of new construction | hon. friend made his statement that the for the year 1904-5 amounted to the new design would be ready by that unprecedented sum of £11,500,000, but period; but the new design had worked out of that £948,000 was for the out to a considerably larger displacement Triumph" and "Swiftsure," the two than the Board had anticipated, and it ships purchased from the Chilian Govern- was necessary, therefore, entirely to rement. The point to which attention was arrange the design and obtain a smaller directed by the Supplementary Estimate displacement at a smaller cost. That presented to the House a few days ago was would have involved such a delay that it the large expenditure on contract repairs was thought better to lay down these and reconstruction. He then stated that three ships of the "King Edward VII.” those repairs were not progressive, but, type, which, after all, was as good a on the contrary, that they were special, type of battleship as existed at the preand that he hoped to be able to announce sent moment. He thought the House a considerable reduction in the amount would realise that it was not very much devoted to them in this year's Estimates. out of date when he said that the two He was glad that he could make that new battleships ordered by the Japanese good, because, whereas £1,200,000 was Government to be laid down in the last devoted to reconstruction and repair few days were practically of the "King in the Estimates of the present year, Edward VII." type. It was therefore not the Estimates now presented only an out-of-date type; but at the same contained a sum of £600,000, a reduction time the Board of Admiralty would have of 50 per cent. The fact was that they been glad if they could have fulfilled the had got rather behindhand in their work expectation held out last year and laid of reconstruction and repairs owing to them down after a newer type. The two the congestion in the dockyards, and the new battleships, however, which would object of sending these ships to the be laid down in the autumn of this year contract yards was to make up leeway. would be of the new type known as the The effect had been that recently the "Lord Nelson" type. Comptroller of the Navy had stated to the Board of Admiralty that the whole of the ships which would be mobilised in case of necessity either were actually ready for commission at this moment, or, if they were being reconstructed or repaired, could be ready in a few weeks. That, he thought, was a very satisfactory statement. Then came the subject of the three new battleships laid down in the dockyards during the past six weeks, which were of the "King Edward VII." type. In the statement made by his right hon. friend the late Secretary to the Admiralty last year, he held out the expectation that these ships would be of a new type. It had been intended that these ships should be put out to contract at a somewhat later date; but it happened that the work in the dockyards had been so advanced that it was necessary either to discharge some of the particular men who were employed on new construction work in the yards, or lay down the new ships VOL. CXXX. [FOURTH SERIES.] Criticism might perhaps be directed against the Admiralty to the effect that they were not building sufficient submarines; but he would remind the House that the submarine was still largely in the experimental stage, and he remembered well that in the debate on the Estimates two years ago the hon. Member for Dundee criticised the Admiralty very severely for building submarines too quickly. He would remind the House that these Vessels could be built very quickly, and therefore it was not desirable to build too many at once of the same type, as improvements were daily being evolved, and they could hardly tell from week to week whether the existing type might not be to some extent superseded. Arising out of the question of construction, he might say a few words on the dockyards. In these Estimates there was a new sub-head to Vote 8 which would provide, for two years only, a sum of £200,000-£100,000 in the coming year, and another £100,000 in 1905–6— 2 U for the replacement of obsolete machinery | the naval policy of this country was for the dockyards. It was hoped that purely defensive. The strategy of the when that sum had been spent it would British Navy was purely offensive, but suffice to equip the yards with the most the naval policy of the country was modern machinery and enable them to purely defensive. That policy being obtain better value from their output defensive it followed that it was not and the labour bestowed upon them. we who took the lead, but that we Good progress was being made with the followed other Powers and did not installation of the system of electricity in initiate expenditure. It had also been the yards, for which the House voted stated in that House on several occasions large sums last year under the Naval that the only overture of this character Works Act. In the matter of labour in which had been made was made at that the dockyards questions of pay and Table by Lord Goschen when he was salary had recently been raised in the First Lord of the Admiralty, and what House. Several improvements had been he said and what arose out of it would be made in the pay and allowances given to within the recollection of hon. Members. dockyard labourers, and the establish- One more source of heavy expenditure ment had been increased from a little to which he would like to refer, over 6,000 to 7,000 men. An experiment was the fact of the very large number of on a small scale was just about to be ships we were obliged to put in comtried which it was hoped might have mission. If there was one lesson which far-reaching effects. The system was we might learn from recent events in the going to be inaugurated in the engineer- Far East, it was the rapidity with which ing shops of what was known as the a naval blow might be struck at the premium system, by which a particular commencement of a war, and it was time would be allowed that time having evident, if we learnt that lesson, that been carefully calculated beforehand by the Navy which was most prepared for practical observation-within which any war would be the Navy which would get particular work could be carried out by the enormous advantage of the initiative. the man engaged upon it, If he com- It would be clear to the House that even if pleted that work satisfactorily, and it we had sufficient active service ratings in passed inspection, within less than the naval barracks, in the training establishallotted average time, he would then ments and in the coastguard, wherever receive a premium calculated proportion- they might be, fully instructed and ately to the amount of time he had competent in their duties, and if we had saved. That system had already been the ships in reserve ready for those men, adopted in one or two large private yards. those ships would be by no means so effiIt was found to work very satisfactorily, cient as if they had entered on the war with and it was hoped that it would work their crews ready on board and thoroughly equally satisfactorily in the dockyards. accustomed to the ships. The proof of If so, it would certainly be extended. that was to be found in what happened at manœuvres. The troubles which arosethe breaksdown of machinery and mechanism-occurred almost invariably in ships specially commissioned with active service ratings to take part in the manœuvres. Comparatively few breaksdown and difficulties occurred with ships which had been in commission, and which took part in manoeuvres with crews that were accustomed to everything on board. The advantages of the immediate stroke in the case of a navy differed enormously from that in the case of an army. army could not strike as a navy could strike immediately, and many prepara. tions were necessary before an army He had, in conclusion, again to assure the House how deeply the Admiralty felt the responsibility which lay upon them in presenting these immense Estimates. It was suggested by a Motion which was upon the Paper that they were unnecessary, because it would be within the power of the Government and the country to make an arrangement with foreign Powers by whom our standard was set, in order to reduce the amount of naval expenditure in this and other countries. It was not, perhaps, for him to discuss that question at any length, but he might remind the House that An could be brought into operation. Therefore, if we were to have the full advantage of the initiative in the case of the Navy it was necessary not only to have the Fleet calculated on the standard he had ventured to suggest and elaborate to the House; but that Fleet, and especially the best ships-because it was the best ships which should be sent into action first-must be kept mainly in commission and ready to strike a blow immediately the necessity arose. He would venture to say before sitting down that although the British Navy was the greatest, and, perhaps, the most powerful engine of war in the world, at the same time it certainly was the opinion of the Admiralty, this House, and the country, and, he believed, of the world, that there was no greater power for the maintenance of peace throughout the whole universe than the British Navy. To that end it should be directed. MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee) said he did not propose at that moment to follow the hon. Gentleman into the long and interesting statement just made to the House, but he thought they should be wanting in courtesy, if they did not at once acknowledge the care which the hon. Gentleman had taken in making his statement and the perfect clearness with which he had laid the proposals of the Government before the House. The proper time for discussing the proposals would be when the House got into Committee, and he had a further reason for postponing what he had to say in the fact that his hon. friend the Member for West Denbighshire had a proposition to make to the House which was of the greatest possible importance. He should not stand in the way of the House discussing it at once. He would content himself now with the almost formal duty he had performed. He saw the acting Leader of the House in his place, and perhaps he might be permitted to say that the true answer to his hon. friend's proposition was one that must come not from the Admiralty but from the representative of the Government. MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.) said he joined his hon. friend in congratulating the Secretary to the Admiralty on the statement he had made. He thought it would be for the general convenience of the House if they immediately proceeded to discuss the definite issue which was raised in the Motion he desired to submit. At a later stage the House would have full opportunity of discussing the many interestin and important points in the Votes seriatim, but, undoubtedly, the first point they had to consider was the magnitude of the Estimates, and that was the kernel of his Resolution. The object of his Motion in the first place was to call attention to the constant increase that was going on in the Naval Estimates; in the second place, to call attention to what was patent to all, that those large increases must, if they were persisted in, have a retarding effect on the industrial system of the country; and, in the third place, to suggest that the time had arrived when they should urge the Government of this country to make every effort possible in order to come to some arrangement with other great naval Powers, which would lead to a diminution in the future shipbuilding programmes of the various countries concerned. He thought the House knew sufficient of his views in regard to the Navy to know that he was one of those who believed that an adequate and efficient Navy was absolutely necessary under existing conditions for the safety of our Empire. It was our principal arm of defence, it was the main protector of our vast commerce, and he submitted that the necessity of maintaining a thoroughly efficient Navy for our purposes was not in any way inconsistent with an earnest desire to urge the Government to make every possible effort by which а diminution might take place in those huge sums which were a burden on our national resources. If they were able happily to achieve any such result, as the outcome of his Motion, it would be a great It would benefit for all concerned. strengthen the better elements in the national life. It would transfer capital from the engines of war to remunerative work, it would vivify commerce, and it would make for international peace. It was quite evident from the speech of the Secretary to the Admiralty, and it was equally evident from the Statement issued by the First Lord of the Admiralty in connection with the Estimates this year, that the Board of Admiralty were fully conscious of the gigantic dimensions of the Estimates. The statement of the First Lord contained the the following passage "The Board of Admiralty are well aware that the charge they are asking Parliament to sanc-i tion is a heavy one, but Parliament must remember how heavy is the responsibility cast by it on the Board, of providing the country with a Navy strong enough to sustain a struggle with the Navies of any two Powers, and also strong enough to ensure reasonable security to its vast sea-borne trade and to the food supply of the people. The Board ask for nothing which they do not believe to be necessary for this purThey have avoided, and will avoid, giving any stimulus to the expansion of armaments by the formulation of large programmes of construction, but when such programmes are adopted by other Powers, they have no choice but to take them into account in framing their own shipbuilding policy." pose. From a practical standpoint it seemed to him that that passage was in itself a justification of the Motion he made. It was an admission on the part of the Board of Admiralty that, so long as things remained as they were now, the Board had no choice in the matter but to go on increasing the programme year by year in <rder to keep pace with the shipbuilding ]rogrammes of other naval Powers. He as one of those who did not challenge the necessity of the two-Power standard. He thought that under existing circumstances it was necessary, but he would point out that it was rather an elastic phrase, capable of a considerable amount of variation. One prejudicial result which had followed the adoption of that standard as the guiding principle of our policy in regard to the programme of shipbuilding, was that it had been the means of discontinuing, to a large extent, the legitimate criticism by the House of Commons of the Navy Estimates. In regard to the past history of this proposal there had been a great deal too much fatalism on the one hand in the mind of the Board of Admiralty, and on the other hand a good deal too much vague enthusiasm on the part of those who were genuinely anxious to reduce armaments. He did not think the present moment was an opportune time for peace Conferences, but he did think it was a favourable time, at all events, for a practical interchange of views between our Government and the Governments of other great naval Powers. That interchange of views should take place and be carried on by the business men of the Cabinet. As we held a predominant position among the Navies of the world he thought it was our plain duty to take the initiative in the matter. It was admitted on all hands that the two-Power standard had been proved to be sufficient. In the interesting speech which he made on Friday last Lord Brassey emphasised the correctness of that view when he stated that in relation to battleships our strength had been brought fully up to the two-Power standard, with a large margin; while in regard to cruisers we had a still more marked superiority. The hon. Gentleman opposite laid down the proposition that that standard could not be made to apply to cruisers. In regard to the general principle the hon. Gentleman laid before the House he was inclined to believe it, but he thought a distinction might be drawn between first-class cruisers and other cruisers. Lord Brassey in the same speech stated that if the expenditure on shipbuilding had been justified the expenditure on manning had certainly been increased beyond the necessity of the case. He further said that he had done his best to promote the efficiency of the Navy, but he had striven, and would continue to strive, to combine economy and efficiency. It seemed to him in regard to that point made by Lord Brassey, that, under existing conditions, with the two-Power standard in full force, it was almost impossible for us today to combine full efficiency and full economy in our Navy. He did not wish to press the point too far. It seemed to him that, so long as the Board of Admiralty acted in accordance with the view that they should keep pace with all the developments that suddenly took place in the shipbuilding programmes of other countries, there must be a certain amount of waste of public money in carrying out such a policy. He thought it was admitted on all hands that we were in a position in which we could fairly, without our action being |