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if he could tell him how much of that they should pay some share of the cost, money would directly or indirectly- the amount should be fixed and not benefit the Irish people. The number of exceeded year after year. That was done Irishmen in the Fleet was extremely in the case of the Colonies, and he would small, and, as regarded the cost of the ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Coast Guard Service, that service was, in without going into details, to say whether, Ireland, also a comparatively small one. supposing our naval expenditure continued It would, therefore, be impossible to growing year by year, the demand upon suggest that Ireland participated to the Colonies would increase in proportion. any extent in the benefit of the ex- They knew very well that it would not; penditure of this money. An increase that a sum had been fixed to cover a was apparent in all the Votes con- certain period of years, and that whether tained in the Estimates, and in conthe expenditure on the British Navy was nection with everyone of them he larger or smaller that given sum only ventured to assert that the Irish people would have to be paid. The case of Iregot no return whatever for the expendi- land, however, was quite different from ture. It was perfectly futile for the that of the Colonies. The Irish people Secretary to the Treasury or any other were poorer, their resources were much than every way hon. Member representing the Govern- slighter ment to tell him that they had in return resources of the Colonies. They certainly for that great expenditure the satisfaction were not so wealthy, and it was, thereof knowing that they were protected and fore, most unnecessary to call upon them safeguarded all round their coasts by the to pay this enormously huge sum of British Fleet. money, increasing as it was, year by year. The whole position of Ireland in reference to Great Britain in this matter was most unjust and unfair, and he would go even further and would say that, in his opinion, it was a downright mean thing for a great and wealthy Government like the present one to insist upon the Irish people, whose poverty was perfectly well known, sharing to the fullest extent the burden of this expenditure. He might cite another point. Some years ago a Royal Commission sat to consider the relative positions of Ireland and Great Britain in the matter of taxation, and it was on record that that Commission reported that the Irish people were contributing several millions a year more than they ought in fairness to pay for national purposes. That could not be gainsaid in any way, and yet the demands upon the Irish taxpayer were being increased year after year. The Irish people found the greatest possible difficulty in providing for themselves the ordinary necessaries of life, and yet, without the slightest reference to their deplorable condition, the representatives of the wealthy English nation came there and without any hesitation insisted that they should consent to the increased naval expenditure. The Irish people had no sympathy whatever with this braggart policy which had been adopted by the present Government, the result of which they saw in the expenditure of those 3 F

He did not know whether this country was in danger or not; he did not know whether the standard set up-the two-Power standard which had been set up for our Fleet to render it able to cope with the fleets of any other two nations in the world--was justified by circumstances or not. This country might be in danger, and it might be considered necessary to spend even more money than it was now proposed to spend for its protection; but, however that might be, no one could seriously urge that it was necessary for the welfare and security of Ireland, with its population of 4,500,000, to spend year after year increasingly large sums of money for the upkeep of the greatest and largest Fleet in the world. They in Ireland were in no danger; their foreign trade had unfortunately almost vanished. A hundred years ago there was a considerable trade throughout Ireland, but one of the results of the destruction of the separate Irish Government had undoubtedly been the disappearance of the foreign trade of Ireland, and it was, therefore, absurd to say that any theory of national security or well-being could justify a demand on the Irish people to spend millions of their money for a Fleet from which they derived absolutely no advantage whatever. He said seriously it would only be fair and reasonable to arrive at some arrangement in regard to Ireland whereby, if it were necessary that

VOL. CXXX. [FOURTH SERIES.]

enormous sums of money. If the Government considered these things were necessary, if they considered that the wealth of the country should be sunk in shipbuilding and gunmaking, it was their business, and no one had any right to interfere with their opinion or their decision to spend their own money as lavishly and as generously as they chose upon their Fleet. They might make that Fleet four times its present size, they might fill their dockyards with work and employ thousands more men than they did at the present day; but they had no right to ask the people of Ireland, who were not threatened by any danger from any Power in the wide world, to keep pace with them in that expenditure, which was creating alarm by reason of its very magni

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money expended on them? The days of
smuggling had long gone by, and the
Coastguards apparently had nothing to
do except to fire big guns at nothing at
all in the sea. Along the Irish coasts
there existed some of the poorest and
most miserable populations in the whole
world; the people were huddled together
without sufficient land to live upon and
with their fisheries undeveloped. Side
by side with these poverty stricken
people would be found a Coastguard
station, the cost of whose upkeep, if
spent in improving harbours or buying
boats, might greatly relieve the lot of
these poor people. The contrast was
really too great. He could not expect
English Members, who probably repre-
sented constituencies in which there was
no real poverty, to enter into his view on
this matter, but if they came from
districts in Ireland they would readily
agree that there was much to complain
of in the enormous expenditure from which
the Irish people derived no benefit what-
ever. He was perfectly aware that no
attention whatever would be paid to
anything Irish representatives might say.
It was true that they did not share the
Englishman's enthusiasm for the Navy
and the Empire. As a matter of fact,
many of their constituents had never
even seen a man-of-war, and they could
not be said to be unreasonable in
objecting to enormous increases in the
Votes from which they would derive no
practical benefit whatever. A system by
which Ireland made a reasonable fixed
payment might work, but the present
system under which she had to pay more
and more every year simply perpetuated
illfeeling, dissatisfaction, and disloyalty.
It was well known that Ireland had no
sympathy with the policy which neces-
sitated the expenditure of £42,000,000
the Navy and £25,000,000 or
on the Army;
was outside it in every way except
that she was compelled to bear her full
share of the cost; but as long as that
position continued there would remain to
her representatives the consolation, poor
though it might be, of protesting vigorously
and repeatedly against an impost which
was unfair and mean to the last degree.
He begged to move.

He had asked a Question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that day with a view to securing a Return which would give in a handy and intelligible form information showing to the taxpayer of this country, and of Ireland as well, what had been the growth of naval expendiduring the last twenty years. This year there was a further increase, next year there would be another, and doubtless in the year following the same thing would happen, and so the thing would go on until there was as much spent on the Army and Navy as was at present spent on all the Departments put together. That was the road to ruin. One day there would be a rude awakening, and the masses of the people would see that national safety did not exist in this rivalry between nations as to expenditure. Personally he did not care if it did lead England to disaster, as in many ways she deserved it. She could make her Navy as large as she liked, but she ought to do it with her own money, and not force Ireland to pay whether she liked it or not. As an illus-on tration of the manner in which Ireland £30,000,000 was treated he instanced the Coastguards. He had no objection to Coastguards as such; they were picturesque looking individuals, and with their flags and guns they served to break the monotony of the coast. But so far as Ireland was concerned far too much money was spent on the service. What was the use of the expenditure? When had the Irish roast been attacked? When had these men made any practical return for the Mr. William Redmond.

she

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Wages, &c., of Officers,

Seamen, and Boys) be reduced by | examination. He also wished to point £281,692."-(Mr. William Redmond.) out that to test the success of the scheme would require a considerable number of years. His hon. friend behind him seemed to think that the scheme had succeeded already. He agreed that it would not be difficult to get a great number of boys to join the Navy, but it would be at least twenty or thirty years before they could tell whether the naval officer produced by this sort of training would be an improvement. One objection he had always made was that the plan of taking boys at twelve years of age had been tried and been found wanting. The plan of taking them at seventeen or eighteen years of age had not been tried, but he did not think the age of fifteen or sixteen years as an alternative was a satisfactory compromise.

SIR JOHN GORST (Cambridge University), who was very indistinctly heard, referred to the method by which the Admiralty now selected the young officers for the Navy. He heartily supported the principle of the scheme. Without committing himself to every detail, he believed the plan adopted was an admirable one, and he hoped it would be successful. There were two methods of selecting officers-that adopted by the Admiralty of taking the boys at a very early age, and becoming responsible for their entire education, and the system adopted by all other civilised nations of taking the young officer at seventeen or eighteen years of age from the ordinary civil population and then beginning special training. The system of the Admiralty was not necessarily With regard to school management, to be condemned because it was unique. when the Admiralty undertook to He believed the British naval officer, all manage a school they should be very round, to be the best in the world, but careful to see that it was really a whether that was in consequence or in good one. If public schools were never spite of the method of training was a going to be better than they were now, point upon which differences of opinion then the Admiralty would be right in saymight exist. One of the chief disadvan- ing that they must have a school of their tages of the present system was that the own. He was not sure that the Admiryoung boys were deprived of the immense alty would be able to maintain the school advantage of being brought up, and edu- as well as the public schools were now cated amongst the ordinary youth of the maintained. He would suggest that the country. They had not got the ideas which Admiralty should have this school they would get in association with other examined by the Department of the Board boys, and that was no doubt a very great of Education, and that the reports of disadvantage. Another disadvantage was that inspection and examination should that when a boy was twelve from time to time be laid on the Table of years of age, it was difficult to say whether he would the House. He thought that would be a make a good naval officer or not. Again safeguard for the Admiralty itself, and a they could not tell when he arrived at guarantee that the large amount of money the age of seventeen or eighteen years asked for would be usefully and properly whether he might not have developed an expended. Instead of taking a much earnest desire for some other profession. larger number of boys at the age of It was a great misfortune for a grown-up system by which the wastage could be eighteen it might be better to have some young man to be obliged to follow a profession to which he had not a natural been done in former days in the Admirsupplied from the outside. That had bent. Having made their choice healty, and in that way they had a great thought the Admiralty were carrying it check upon the efficiency of the system. out in the best way they could, and he Those were points which he desired to cordially wished their plan success. He urge upon the Government last year, hoped they would never send these young but he did not get the opportunity. He boys to anything approaching a competi- wished the Admiralty to consider this as tive examination, for it did them a most a matter of education, and not as a pernicious injury to cram them. If matter of naval policy, and if they did he the system adopted was to be given thought it possible that some system of fair chance they must make up the kind might improve and assist the their minds not to have a competitive plan which the Admiralty had adopted

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and in the carrying out of which he had no desire to do anything but give them the most cordial support.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs) said there could be no doubt that expenditure upon the present scale of the Navy Estimates pressed very hardly upon this country as well as upon Ireland. Knowing as he did the importance of having a sufficiently strong Navy, he had never found any difficulty in supporting the Navy Estimates, and, despite their growth, which had been almost alarmingly rapid, he should not oppose any part of the expenditure upon the Navy which was now being asked for. Years ago he said in this House that he thought the expenditure upon the Navy would ultimately rise to £40,000,000, but he did not think it would have arrived so soon. With regard to the information upon which they granted the money that was asked for, he thought that information was in some respects some what slender. It was, indeed, almost impossible that it should be otherwise, because they all knew that there were items in naval expenditure as in other Departments which could not well be discussed in public. They took a very serious responsibility upon themselves in voting an expenditure which increased at so rapid a rate unless they were certain that means could not be devised by which the House could be more fully taken into the confidence of the Admiralty. They could not consider the Navy Estimates without bearing in mind what was being spent annually upon naval works. The naval works at Rosyth would cost over £5,000,000. He gave that as an example of the expenditure they were asked to sanction without having any real knowledge of what it was for. If one had to defend that expenditure in the country it could be justified fully only upon the ground that it was necessary to have properly equipped dockyards situated in the cheapest centre of production. In order to continue this great annual outlay upon the Navy it was necessary that the Government should take the country along with them as well as the House of Commons. It was stated by Lord Goschen in introducing the Navy Estimates in 1899 that a Supplementary Estimate was needed because a large sum had been taken from a special fund in Sir John Gorst.

Russia for Navy purposes. It might not be always possible to give the grounds for which money was asked for the Navy. What he felt in regard to the Vote for new construction was that sufficient cause had not been made out for raising it to the figure at which it stood. It might not be possible to do that in public. The consideration which he wished specially to put before the hon. Gentleman was one which had been already referred to, and that was whether it would not be possible to appoint a Committee of the House with power to sit in secret session, as the Foreign Relations Committee did in America, and whether fuller information could not be imparted to those Members of the House who were most qualified, irrespective of Party, to serve on such a Committee. He believed if the Navy Estimates had the support of a

Committee of that kind there would be

much less disposition. either in the details of this great expenditure with House or the country, to cavil at the would always be, as he had always been, which the country was burdened. He in favour of voting the fullest provision for the requirements of the Fleet, and he submitted the suggestion as to whether it was not possible to take the House of Commons more into the confidence of the Admiralty, hoping that might be seriously considered. He believed the suggestion could be worked out without any great difficulty.

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*MR. KEARLEY (Devonport) said he knew some of the hardships involved in the new principle of entering boys at twelve years of age, because it shut out those of a class who, prior to the introduction of the new scheme, had an opportunity of entering the Navy. That would apply to the engineer class of officers most particularly. He did not in the least suggest snobbery, but there could be no doubt that little opportunity would be given to certain people to gain admittance in future to the higher ranks of the Navy. He did not suppose in these democratie days anyone would attempt to argue that all the best brain was reserved for a few. In the United States and other countries very many of the best men came from the most humble beginnings. He thought it would be shutting out a great element of strength to absolutely close the doors

to some of those who had had an MR. GROVES (Salford, S.) said the opportunity hitherto of access.. He right hon. Gentleman the Member for desired to raise a question affecting Cambridge University spoke with training. They were told by the authority on all matters relating to Secretary to the Admiralty that the education. Whether boys were to take training of the Navy in the future was their place in the services or in the bound to be scientific, mainly concerning ordinary walks of life, any opinion which gunnery and the care of machinery, and the right hon. Gentleman gave on their that all boys as soon as they went into education deserved attention. training ships would have their attention had experience in his own family of

directed to those matters.

It occurred to

him that there would be a great need in future for schoolmasters to prepare the minds of the lads for the higher examina tions they would have to pass at a later period for the posts of petty and warrant officers, and so on. Of course in the old days the seamanship instructor was a great man on the ship, when promotion was dependent almost entirely on good seamanship. That had entirely disappeared and a new state of affairs had come to existence, and a scientific knowledge would be needed even among the lower deck to enable them to make that scientific progression expected of them in gunnery, torpedo work, signalling, and so on. At the present moment he understood that no schoolmaster was carried on any ship afloat. He would suggest that the Admiralty should consider the desirability of introducing into all sea-going ships carrying, say, a crew of 200 ог more, a schoolmaster, who should be carefully selected. He wished to ask the hon. Gentleman a Question in regard to a matter which was referred to in the First Lord's Statement. He referred to the assimilation of the scale of the Marines to the scale approved for the Army both with regard to pay and allowances. Would that assimilation be extended to separation money? Now there was an undertaking on the part of the Admiralty to equalise the condition of the Marine with that of the soldier because it was held to be practically impossible to have different rates of pay prevailing for these services. What he wanted to know was whether the Admiralty was acting actually on an equality basis if they ignored the claims of the Marine to the separation money which the soldier who was married received when abroad. This

a

He had

various methods of naval education. One

A

of his boys entered the Navy some ten years ago, and had had a successful career. second boy who afterwards entered some four or five years later had also been successful. He had a third

boy who would soon apply for entrance. inrovation was one which was likely to His opinion was that the most recent have considerable advantages in the matter of education, and in the future of the Navy. He did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it would be wise to leave the education of officers to the age of eighteen, because the earlier they had the environment round the young life the more likely were they to develop their predilection in favour of the career they were going to take. It was possible for the boys themselves, after running through the earlier period of training, if found by the parents to be unfit for the career, or if the boys expressed a definite distaste for it to be withdrawn from the service. He had found in his own experience that it was of the greatest possible advantage to give boys an early naval environment. fate of the country might depend on the natural inclination of officers for their work and their scientific training, and, if their selection was left to a later period of life, valuable time for training would be wasted which the most recent change in regard to entrance would enable them to improve. It must not be forgotten that under the new system youngsters did not make a selection of the particular branch of the service to which they eventually attached themselves till a later period. They were now to be put through the same curriculum and training up to a determined by selection, merit, or efficicertain period, and afterwards it was ency was

matter of considerable interest to many, and he hoped the hon. Gentleman would be able to give some satisfaction upon it.

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which branch they should enter. He thought this was a considerable gain under the new system. The natural bent was given full play, and that was also a great advantage over the old system.

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