tended "making all clear which was in doubt, and pressed in this House and acquiesced in by all carrying out all the intentions that were exParties." Congested Districts Board, who was a an amend ing Bill the Government infriend and admirer of the Chief Secretary, had informed him that he still adhered to the view expressed in the resolution of 1895. He asked him whether he would be good enough to give him his views as to the adequacy or inadequacy of the Act of last year to provide a remedy for the congestion in the West of Ireland. With the permission of the House he would read the statement he had received from that member of the Congested Districts Board. He said “In my opinion no solution of the congested districts problem is possible in Connaught unless the Congested Districts Board get compulsory powers to acquire, at a price that is not excessive, all the holdings suitable for agriculture over £25 Poor Law valuation, which are in the occupation of non-residential tenants, and used for grazing purposes. The Act of 1903 does not give any special powers or facilities to the Congested Districts Boards to acquire nonresidential grazing holdings, nor grass lands in landlords' hands; on the contrary, owing to the facilities afforded to owners to buy back, with the aid of a State loan, one-third of the lands, comprising estates, which were not subject to tenancies before 1903, there is practically no chance of the Board getting any of such landin, or convenient to the congested districts, unless they pay far more than the land is worth, and they cannot pay an exorbitant price for any considerable area of such land and settle tenants upon it without incurring a loss per family for settling them on the grass area that would be considered grossly excessive. And if they give this extravagant price, they will be fixing a standard that would be altogether too high.' There were two points on which it would be necessary to remove all doubt, and which, from his point of view, were of the utmost gravity. In the first place, they wanted to know whether, under the new Act, a landlord who owned an estate comtenanted land, could sell the tenanted prising partly tenanted and partly unportion of his estate and receive the bonus on the purchase price, while at the same time he retained in his own hands the untenanted land, which might be used for the purposes of emigration and enlargement of holdings. Chief Secretary must be perfectly clear. On that point the It was necessary to impress on the House that if such things were permitted the evils of congestion would be intensified instead of being allayed; and the intentions of Parliament would be utterly defeated. In the second place, all doubt must be removed with reference to the case of the evicted tenants. So far as the Irish Party was concerned they could never consider the Irish land question settled until decent provision was made for the evicted tenants. They wanted to know whether, in the case of an evicted tenant being restored to his holding, the Estates Commissioners would be entitled to give him free grants for restoring the farm buildings and fencing, and for restocking; and likewise compensation to the farmer who was willing to leave the evicted farm. A good deal had been said last year about the desirability of a better understanding between the classes in Ireland. The position of the Nationalist Party was perfectly simple. They had been all along for conciliation; and they believed that the proposals which they made were reasonable and moderate, and that they were necessary if effect was He was informed that the Board had recently bought some untenanted land, and if the Chief Secretary referred to that fact in his reply, he should like the right hon. Gentleman to mention that price at which that land was purchased. That was a matter of vital importance. The average price of land bought by the Congested Districts Board up to 1903 was thirteen and a quarter years purchase, and the highest was seventeen and a half. The Chief Secretary had formerly said that, in his judgment, the average price which the Board would pay for land would be about thirteen years purchase. His contention was that the land must not only be acquired, to be given to the intentions of Parliabut that it must be got at a fair price; and that the sales in cases of congested estates should only be made to the Congested Districts Board or to the Estates Commissioners. The Chief Secretary, in his speech of 3rd Februar, said that in ment when it passed the Act of last year. They contended that these proposals could not injure the landlords, but if they found, when the question came to be discussed in the House, that the landlords resisted their application for the abolition year of the zones, the restoration of inspec- and hoped that that policy would put an tion for the purpose of continuing the end to class conflict in Ireland and extortion of unfair rents, and an adequate give the people a chance of settling down remedy for the malady of congestion; to the development of their material and that they continued to deny a satis- interests and thereby increase the prosfactory provision for the claims of the perity of the country which they all loved. evicted tenants, then the Nationalist To that policy of conciliation there were Party would be reluctantly forced to of course two parties-the landlords and believe that all they had heard last the tenants. On the one side there were about conciliation was hypocrisy and a the leaders of the Nationalist Party and hollow sham, and was intended merely the national movement; on the other side as a means to hoodwink the House, and were Lord Dunraven and his associates in for the purpose of filling their pockets the Land Conference and also a numat the British taxpayers' expense. As ber of landlords not concerned with the far as his Party was concerned, they still Land Conference. He asked the House offered conciliation, and they pointed to bear in mind, if complaint was made out to the landlord party and the Irish as to the attitude of the Nationalist Party, Government that the only alternative of the unreasonable character of their to conciliation was continued conflict; demands, and the inability to satisfy and that while they, on those Benches, them on any point, that they had sought abhorred that alternative and honestly to give effect to the policy of conciliation prayed that under wiser counsels it might be averted in the interests and for the good of their common country, they felt bound to say that if the continued conflict was forced upon them they should know how to meet it. MR. J. P. FARRELL (Longford, N.) said he rose to second the Motion proposed by his hon. friend so eloquently and ably but he realised-and he was sure in Ireland. The Land Purchase Act received the Royal Assent on 10th August last year, and on 8th September a most important meeting of the tenants' representatives was held in Dublin to consider the future working of the Act and to advise, as they had the right and authority to advise, the tenants of Ireland how it should be received. At the great meeting the most important of which set fortha number of resolutions were adopted, "That wherever a readiness may be found on the part of landowners to sell at prices that will equal the prices under former Land Actsto the landlords' price by the cheerful co-operahaving regard to the immense addition made tion of the tenants' representatives-highest interests to conduct in spirit of utmost friendliness with an earnest desire to give the widest possible extension to the operations of the Act, so that any failure in its working may not be justly attributable to the attitude of the people, and that any amendment that may be found necessary may be brought about by the concurrence of all fair-minded men." That was their sheet anchor. They came there that evening in furtherance of the adoption of that resolution. The whole kernel of the difficulty in Ireland was the question of price. His hon. friend pointed out with great force the difference which existed between the price now asked by the landlords and the prices which were cheerfully and voluntarily taken by them under previous Acts. What were the facts with regard to some of the most prominent advocates of conciliation on the landlord side. Let them take the case of Lord Dunraven, who was one of the signatories to the treaty of peace which was to bring about the millenium in Ireland and settle all disputes. After the passage of the Act Lord Dunraven was asked by his tenants to sell his estate and he replied in a long letter. The one fact which stood out in that reply was that if his tenants wanted to purchase their holdings under what might be described as Lord Dunraven's own Act they would have to pay twenty-six years purchase. This did not include the bonus which was generally regarded as being equivalent to three years purchase in addition, whereas land in the locality had been sold under previous Acts at from fifteen to eighteen years purchase. If the Nationalist leaders had known that Lord Dunraven's tenants would be asked to pay twenty-six years purchase it would have been very difficult indeed to have induced them to recommend the Act, as they did, to the kindly consideration of the Irish people. The breakdown of the Act as far as it had gone was not due to any act covert or overt, on the part of the tenants, their leaders, or the representatives of the tenants. That breakdown should be left at the door of the landlords including Lord Dunraven. It appeared to him that when land was to be sold they were not dealing with an unfortunate rain-sodden country but with a diamond mine at Kimberley or a goldfield at Coolgardie. The landlords regarded their interest as almost as valuable as if it were situated in those favoured places. Who would have to bear the burden if the tenants of Ireland were foolish enough to accept the baits held out to them by the landlords? He was speaking as much in the interests of the British taxpayer as the Irish taxpayer. If any deficiency occurred under the Act it would have to come out of public funds, and no doubt the Government would endeavour to make Ireland liable before touching the sacrosanct Treasury of England. He was therefore entitled to speak on this matter from an Imperial point of view, as well as from a local and national point of view. The Act was ushered in with great hopes, but up to the present it had been practically a dead letter. The right hon. Gentleman furnished a Return, which showed that only 3,000 cases had been dealt with No one could contend that that was satisfactory progress. The question was— Had the tenants of Ireland endeavoured to work the Act, or had they not? From his own personal experience he knew they had. Every unsold estate in Longfor, his own county, had appointed an estate committee, and had entered into negotiations with the landlords, and if te negotiations had not been successful it was entirely due to the inordinate demands of the landlords. So far, in his part of the country, only two estates had been sold, and one of those estates illustrated in a very typical manner the way in which the zones system worked, and also how the congested districts clauses had absolutely failed. He referred to the King-Harman estate in county Longford. The rental from agriculture and grazing land was £18,053 per annum. There were 647 non-judicial tenants, paying £4,471 per annum; 679 first-term tenants, paying £8,182; twenty-seven second-term tenants, paying £146; and 295 leaseholders paying £5,236. The estate was put up for sale four months ago, and a gentleman who, he understood, took a prominent part in advising the Government during the passage of the Land Bill, was sent down to Boyle to negotiate it. This gentleman, Mr. Norris Goddard, also took a prominent part during the land war in Ireland, and was identified with the policy of the battering-ram in Kerry and other counties. He offered to the first-term tenants a reduction of 27 per cent.; to the secondterm tenants, 15 per cent.; to the nonjudicial tenants, 40 per cent.; to amicable leaseholders, 35 per cent.; and to other leaseholders, 10 per cent. The tenants met, under the presidency of the parish priest, and offered the following terms: First and second-term tenants to purchase at eighteen and twenty-one years, the landlord's terms being twenty-two-and-a quarter and twenty-six-and-a-half years, respectively, without counting the bonus. A few days delay occurred, and then the tenants received notice from Mr. Goddard that, if they did not accept his terms just as he offered them, without any alteration, he would withdraw his offer, and they would not get a chance of purchasing their holdings. So far from compulsion being put on the landlord to sell, the tenants were compelled, for fear of being sceptical of the value of those gentlemen. But there was no harm in reminding the right hon. Gentleman that high hopes were entertained of these gentlemen, and that they should be reminded that they had to tackle this problem of insolvent estates, and show some result for the salaries he supposed they had drawn. They had heard of no evicted tenants being restored. A scheme had been drawn up to deal with the evicted tenants, but when inquiries were made with regard to it and as to what was to be done they were told that the Commissioners must wait until some estate turned up: that if the Commissioners went after estates the price of land would be raised. Of course, no objection could be raised to that, and if the evicted tenants question was not settled it was no fault of the Commissioners. It was with no feeling of pleasure that they desired to criticise unfavourably the measure of last session; it was not because they wished to make the position of the right hon. Gentleman more difficult than it already was; it was because their hopes of the Act had been doomed to disappointment, and the men responsible for the disappointment were the landlords. The right hon. Gentleman had to determine whether he would stand by the tenants or the landlords in this matter. If he now intended to do nothing to get the land for the tenants at a fair price then they must conclude that he desired to favour the landlords, but if, on the other hand, he wished to do something in this direction the way was open to him by accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leitrim, which he now had the honour to second. Amendment proposed The zones, as they were, were absolutely indefensible, and they were strongly opposed at the time the Act was before the House. So far as he was concerned that was entirely the fault of the landlords. The representatives of the tenants never sought to have the zones imported into the Act, and the incorporation of them was due entirely to the influence of the "At the end of the Question, to add the landlords. He would be slow to cast any words, But we humbly represent to Your doubt on the work of the Commissioners, Majesty that serious amendments including the but the hopes entertained last session abolition of the zones system are required in that these gentlemen would transform unjust inflation of the price of land in Ireland; the Irish Land Aet of last year to prevent the the business of land purchase, clean and that the powers possessed under that Act out the Augean stables of Judge Ross' by the Estates Commissioners and the Court, clear up and purchase all in- Congested Districts Board for the acquisition solvent estates, and get rid of the army provide a remedy for the evils of congestion by of receivers who now battened and the redistribution of the land among the fattened on them, were hopes that had population of the poor districts of the country, without which the Irish Land Question en not been fulfilled. There had not been never be settled; and that a power of coma single case dealt with by the Commis-pulsory purchase of untenanted lands such as the Congested Districts Board unanimously sioners, and, therefore, he was rather asked for in 1895 should be conferred upon that of untenanted lands are not sufficient to body and upon the Estates Commissioners acting under the Land Act of 1903, and that provision should be made that sales in cases of congested estates under that Act should be made only to the Board or the Estate Commissioners.'"--(Mr. P. A. McHugh.) Question proposed, "That those words be there added." *MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.) said that British Members must be considerably surprised at a debate of this kind at this time. Last session they were engaged in passing a great Land Bill, and now they were raising the whole question of Irish land afresh. Hon. Members, however, might cease their surprise at once. It was a case of history repeating itself. The Land Act of 1881 was a great measure, but some months after it had passed into law they introduced Bills to amend it. Amending Acts were passed after many sessions, just as the proposals now being put forward would be passed after much trouble. There were several hon. Members absent from that debate about whom he felt a little curious. Where was the official Ulster Unionist Party? The only hon. Member from Ulster who could claim to represent the tenants was the hon. Member for Mid Armagh. But the entire official Ulster Unionist Party was absent when the interests of their constituencies were at stake. He supposed they were rather exhausted after their effort to import the Chinese into the Transvaal. For him the Amendment raised a considerable difficulty, for it assailed the zones. The Chief Secretary would be entitled to say that the Land Conference was responsible for the principle of the zones, and so far as he was concerned he was not prepared to oppose that principle. It would be remembered that when the question of the zones was discussed they moved Amendments, and supported them, not objecting to the principle of the zones, but objecting to the terms of the zones. MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford): No; we moved Amendments absolutely abolishing the zones, and when we failed in that we moved an Amendment altering the terms. *MR. T. W. RUSSELL said he was ap. parently under a wrong impression. He wished to ask the Chief Secretary two questions. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce an amending Bill, He was not going to discuss that before he saw it, but he should like to know was the Bill to be confined simply to the reversal of Mr. Justice Ross's decision? He wished to know would the Bill be retrospective, and would it deal with cases that were before the Estates Commissioners now, and which might have been settled, or would it deal only with future cases? He did not complain of the bad drafting of the Bill. All he would say was that almost before the ink was dry upon the Statute-book the SolicitorGeneral gave a legal opinion to a great Irish land-owner who asked as to the destination of the bonus. And this gentleman, who was responsible for the drafting, gave that landowner the opinion that the least that could be said about it was that it was extremely doubtful. What business had a law officer of the Crown to give opinions upon his own handiwork? The law officers of the Crown in England were not allowed to give opinions of that kind, and the Solicitor-General for Ireland might very well have left that matter to some of his friends at the Bar, for there were plenty of them with very little to do. He agreed that the Act had not touched the real difficulty, and until the points which had been raised had been satisfactorily dealt with and solved, the land question would remain not only to trouble Iri hmen, but also this House. He would assume that a landlord had an estate which was largely made up of uneconomic holdings, which did not pay any rent except that which came out of English or American labour. Would a landlord in that position, holding, say, 1,500 of such holdings, and also possessed of grass land let to graziers at a high rent-if that landlord came forward to the Estates Commissioners with agreements duly signed by those wretched tenants to purchase, but with no agreement signed for the sale or purchase of the grass land, would the Estates Commissioners in any case be bound to declare that portion to be an estate, not within the meaning of this Act, but for the purposes of this Act? He wanted to know if the Commissioners were compelled to give that decision, and |