pay more, but he had always taken into account the differences that might exist.

After all there

not to have encouraged the Estates Commissioners to forego their arduous administrative labours in order to supply him with a debating case upon the Address. The hon. Member's argument was that MR. WYNDHAM said that was prethe value of land was going down in Ire- cisely what he intended to convey. They land. He was not going to quarrel with all admitted that there were exceptions him on that point, but he would remind both ways, and that was the principle the hon. Member that in the earlier dis- embodied in the Report of the Land Concussions on the question of purchase ference. The hon. Member for Waterford most of them were in agreement that the gave them excellent advice in his speech volume of purchase under the old Acts at Newcastle, County Down, when he was decreasing in amount, and that the urged the tenants not to lose the chance prices in terms of years purchase were of becoming the owners of the soil upon increasing. He doubted whether the any small trivial or insignificant point, Land Conference would have been held and not to enter into negotiations in a but for the presence of these two facts. hostile, but in a conciliatory spirit. He During the discussion over the land ques- agreed with that advice, for he thought tion he had never made himself respon- it was very excellent. sible for expressing an opinion as to what was not so much in dispute. The hon. the price of Irish land should be, and he Member who moved this Amendment was not going to do so now. The best said that in his opinion the prices arrived advice on this point was to be found in at were too high. He was not going to the Conference Report, which assserted general principles and left their appli- it was not for the author of an Act to lay express any opinion upon prices, because cation to the parties who knew all down a standard of prices. The mover of the circumstances of the case. The this Amendment attributed the prices averages varied in every province of which had been given under the Land Act Ireland-in every estate and in different to the zones, but he differed from that holdings of that estate, and, therefore, contention altogether. They discussed to proceed on the principle of averages the question of zones for many days last was to adopt a very rough-and-ready year, and during the discussion the hon. manner indeed. It had been suggested Member for Cork said he did not agree by the hon. Member for South Tyrone that minute inspection was a very useful that the people of Ulster would not do matter. On the 15th of June the hon. badly if they purchased on terms which Member saidgave them a reduction of 4s. in the £, but the circumstances were different in every locality, and almost in the age of every individual. One landlord would nt sell cheaper than the Act, and on the other hand, there were tenants who could afford to give a better price, and would sooner do that than postpone the moment at which they became owners. Again, there were tenants who did not feel that they could undertake such a serious obligation unless they saw reasonable prospects of paying the instalments for a number of years.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL said that he had always contended that estates differed, and he thought, as a whole, that the tenants would be safe if they bought with 4s. in the reduction on second-term rents. He did not say that there were not estates where they might be able to

"Minute inspection and valuation of over 300,000 holdings would have to be made, with the result that a generation would pass away before any general transfer of land was effected.

He invited the attention of hon. Members opposite to that point. Proceeding, the hon. Member went on to say that inside the zones it was quite necessary that some inspection should take place to ascertain that there was no subletting and other securities, but all this could be rapidly and efficiently done by men of the surveyor class, which would not involve a system of inspection by highly-paid cfficials to report upon security and price. Of course any Land Bill must be a compromise, but the main thing to the tenant was the substantial reduction he got upon the second-term rent he has paid. There was nothing in the Amendment for the security

been 29 4 and the average number of years' purchase had been 21 7. Of hold ings upon which rents had been fixed since August, 1896, there had been 728, and the average reduction had been 19 7. That was very near the mean, but that was an accident. One feature in the first clause of the Act to which he invited attention was that a distinction was made between judicial rents and non-judicial rents. Of holdings upon which no judicial rent had been fixed there were 543, and the average reduction in those cases had been 307. He did not think he would be justified in going at great length into arithmetical calculations; but supposing such results were normal it would pay a man in Connaught to buy on those averages, even if he had a first-term rent, rather than wait to have a second-term rent fixed.

He would now deal with the question of untenanted land. The Amendment suggested that the Estates Commissioners had not sufficient power to purchase untenanted land. Strongly as he objected to the principle of compulsion, deeply as he believed it would disturb

essence of the Act that where that was possible they should look rather to direct arrangements between the landlord and his tenants and others who might wish to occupy untenanted land. They could not expect that men would take up in three months an entirely novel process and devise a completely new manner of managing their estates. In the circumstances he thought the results were fairly good. He had a list of twenty-two estates, and he found that the landlords had made arrangements for selling 7,650 acres of untenanted land to persons mentioned in Section 2 of the Act or to the Commissioners for the purposes of the Act.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal S.): How many of these estates are in Connaught?

MR. WYNDHAM said his information on that point would come in better when he was dealing with the purchases by the Congested Districts Board, but some of these were in Connaught. Besides these the spirit of conciliation now existing in estates there were some which had been Ireland [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: sold under Sections 7 and 8-that was Where is the conciliation by the landlords? Well, perhaps he might be perentirely untenanted land-to the Estates mitted to waive that, and to say that he did Commissioners under the Act. He would not think it was necessary at this moment point out to hon. Members opposite that to suggest that the powers for securing the question of congestion could not be untenanted land were ineffective. The dealt with on the lines which were advoprocedure under the Act was entirely cated in this Amendment. It was sug novel, and it was hardly possible in three gested that all defined as "congested months to devise a staff organisation to estates must of necessity be sold to the get into touch with all the untenanted lands that might possibly be bought. There were many difficulties in the way. of working this Act, but he had not found that the absence of compulsory the property. If they succeeded in powers was one of them. It was of the carrying the Amendment they would

Estates Commissioners and ought not to

be dealt with by voluntary arrangement between the landlord and the tenants on

largely limit and paralyse the operation | Amendment, which afforded an opportunity of seeing how things were going on, but three months was a very short time, and he recommended hon. Members to give the Act a rather longer run. There had been no occasion so far for advocating compulsory sale in the congested districts. The Act had only been in operation since December, and the Congested Districts Board had purchased seven estates for £156,900; it was in negotiation for the purchase of six estates for £100,672, and it was considering the purchase of sixty other estates. Could anyone suppose that with compulsory powers they could secure the purchase in even six months of more than seventy estates? In the purchases already completed they had got more untenanted land than tenanted land, They had bought 2,300 acres of untenanted land, they were negotiating for 1,600 acres more, and were having reports made respecting 15,000 acres. What good would compulsory powers have been to them? The mere mention of compulsory powers would make every landlord of untenanted land draw back into his shell. On the other hand, they had had no difficulty in buying untenanted land suited to their needs; and he had no doubt that, when the owners of grass land knew that they were to be paid a fair price, such land would come more rapidly into the market, and they would proceed apace with the solution of the difficult question of congestion. Compulsory power, so far from helping them, would lead to loss of time, of temper, and to the breaking up of the general agreement that existed that they should deal not only with the transfer of land to the occupier, but with the problem of the evicted tenants, and with congestion. At the present rate of progress it would

of the Act. Over and over again it would be found that one landlord owned a large property, part of which was composed of very rich large farms, part of fairly good farms, and part rushy and mountainous land. An estate of that character could not be dealt with on any uniform plan. They must not fetter the discretion of the Estates Commissioners before the Act had had a fair trial. Suppose he did accept the Amendment, which, of course, he could not do, and declared that all congested estates should be sold to the Commissioners, there might be estates a portion of which only was congested. That portion would have to be sold to the Commissioners and the rest would be left to be disposed of by direct sale. They must leave to the landlords a chance of solving these problems. As to the case of the evicted tenants, he had been asked whether money could be advanced under the Act as a free gift to put back evicted tenants. All he could say was that there was no more money now and no greater limitation on the use of the money. He had never had any doubt in his mind on the point; but he must not be held to say that there was an unlimited amount of money to give to people who could borrow. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had asked whether the amending Bill would be retrospective. That would be so. With regard to sales in Ulster, better news had reached him than had reached the hon. Member for South Tyrone. He knew very well large estates in Ulster which were going to be sold in the near future, and he believed the sale of them would determine the sale of others. The Bill was accepted to be worked and given a fair chance. He did not complain of the

tion. That he would leave to those who might be better informed on these points than he was. Speaking from the point of view of the British taxpayer, he confessed he was not at all discouraged in regard to the working of the Land Act. Even the hon. Member for Stoke, who posed as the representative of the British taxpayer, admitted that it was better for the taxpayer that the Act should be a success than a failure; and as hon. Members came from Ireland and proposed certain Amendments, which they affirmed would ensure the success of the Act without entailing the voting of more money, the hon. Member for Stoke ought to have jumped to those Amendments. But the hon. Member took too narrow a view. While he made himself partly responsible for the Government of Ireland, he must take the view of a statesman as well as that of a British taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman made the attempt to be a statesman, and asked what was the return to be for all this money; was it to be the increased prosperity of Ireland? There was a general confession that the

be a severe task upon him to see that the financial limit of £5,000,000 was not exceeded in one year; and in the present state of the money market it would not be possible to ask for more than £5,000,000. Indeed, prudence dictated that they should take less, but a bargain was a bargain. He said they would finance land purchase at that rate for the first three years, and he stood by his part of the bargain. Land purchase was going on as rapidly as one could expect it to go within the financial limit he had laid down, and surely if differences existed on this or that thorny question they might be allowed to wait for six months, or even one or two years, and be settled by the general spirit of conciliation. He thought that they might all congratulate themselves that the Bill had been brought in last year instead of this. They seized the occasion which the Land Conference offered. In December, 1902, Consols were at ninetytwo and a-half, in January last at ninetythree, and on 16th February at ninetytwo and three-quarters. Now Consols stood at eighty-six and a-half, so that had dual system of land ownership had

the Land Conference not occurred last year, the fall in Consols would have made it impossible to bring in a Bill this year. They should make the best of the chance that had befallen them, and agree that in the Act there was still to be found elements which might conduce to a fuller and richer national life in Ireland, and to a more complete accord among all classes in that country.

SIR EDWARD GREY (Northumberland, Berwick) said he did not propose to attempt to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the technical merits of the ques

paralysed the prosperity of Ireland, and it was also a general confession that the evils of the Irish land system had been

due to the mistakes of the British Parliament. If all this was to be put right, the increased prosperity of Ireland and the Tenjoyment of a better conscience, would amply repay the British taxpayer for any sacrifices he had made. He agreed entirely with what had been said by the hon. Member for Waterford as to the limitation of the hopes to be founded on the working of the Act. It had never been put forward as a final settlement of all outstanding questions,