that this was trifling with the House of the payment of colonial troops? He Commons and that something should noticed that the Comptroller and Auditorbe done to have the Supplementary General drew attention to certain claims Estimates more carefully framed. The made by the Colonial Government Estimates were increasing year after year for a 3 per cent. commission on the and the only man prepared to accept the amount transmitted through them for the responsibility for that was the Financial colonial soldiers. He wanted to know Secretary to the War Office, who really if that was the case. was not responsible. He hoped the House of Commons would record its sense of the absurd way in which these accounts had been prepared. MR. WHITLEY said the matter of the Vote of £800,000 for Pay, etc., ought to be explained. Was that amount included in the sum paid in the form of commission to the Colonial Governments for financial transactions connected with Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Boland, John Buxton, Sydney Charles Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Cremer, William Randal Dalziel, James Henry Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Ellice, Capt E.C(SAndrw's Bghs Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John believed the commission was paid in *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER said he respect of stores, but he could not trace the amount. Question put. The Committee divided :-Ayes, 128; Noes, 197. (Division List No. 8). AYES. Grant, Corrie] Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)| Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) Partington, Oswald Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Rose, Charles Day Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Spencer, Rt. Hn.C.R(Northants Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES-Mr. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn NOES. Gore, Hn. S. F.Ormsby-(Linc.) Hope, J.F(Sheffield, Brightside Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Cecil, Lord Hngh (Greenwich) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop Dyke, Rt, Hn. Sir William Hart Gordon, Hn.J.E(Eilgn&Nairn Knowles, Sir Lees Martin, Richard Biddulph Original Question again proposed :And, it being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Reid, James (Greenock) Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) Tutnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. make his Report to the House. Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening. EVENING SITTING. CHINESE LABOUR IN THE TRANSVAAL. or 17th. Let the House observe the position in which they were placed as the result of that debate. The Ordinance a lopted on that occasion was confessedly based on the Report of the Transvaal Adjournment (under Standing Order Labour Commissioners, of which only an No. 10) *DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.) said he rose to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely "The promulgation of the Ordinance providing for the introduction of indentured Chinese Labour into the Transvaal before the Ordinance and its regulations have been discussed by the House of Commons in their complete and operative form." This was a matter of the very greatest importance, and one in which the British people were deeply concerned and the least they could ask was that it should have been treated by the Government or the Colonial Secretary with very great care and circumspection. He thought he was well within the mark when he said the reverse of that had been the act. The Ordinance itself had been hustled through this House with indecent haste, and the regulations they had not seen at all, and were not therefore able to discuss. But the regulations were at least as important as the Ordinance itself, and he could only find one intelligible reason why this thing had been hurried through in this manner. The whole thing was so repugnant to the sense of the British people that the Government got it out of the way as quickly as possible. This House commenced its sittings three weeks ago, and several Parliamentary Papers had been issued. One had been issued before the House met, but it was incomplete and had since the meeting of the House been re-issued. Four others containing 1,100 pages had all been issued since the assembling of the House. On the 4th of this month urgent representations were made to the Colonial Secretary to allow the House to discuss and settle this thing with a perfectly free hand, but the answer of the right hon. Gentleman was that he could not give any other opportunity than was afforded by the discussion on the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, and they were confined to that discussion. abridged and incomplete edition was issued before Parliament met. On the 14th a full copy was issued, with a complete copy of the correspondence between the Colonial Office and South Africa. That correspondence contained what might be termed the first edition of this Ordinance, and that and the second edition, as he would call it, of the Ordinance were in the hands of Members but a few Parliamentary days before the debate opened. He desired to call attention to the striking changes n those two editions, and to the transfer of certain matters which were in the first edition of the Ordinance to the regulations, which they had had no opportunity of discussing at all, of the second edition of the Ordinance. His case was that the regulations, which were the vital machinery to give effect to the Ordinance, and were of equal or more importance than the Ordinance itself, had been promulgated without any discussion in the House. The first edition of the Ordinance contained some visions with regard to the accompanying exceedingly valuable and humane proof the abourers by their wives and children. Those provisions were tained in paragraphs 13, 14, and 15, of the Blue-book, number 1895, page 123. In what he termed the second edition of the Ordinance all those provisions had been dropped out, and were summarised in the regulations which they had never had an opportunity of discussing, although the Ordinance had now been promulgated. con *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON, Warwick and Leamington): The regulations have never been published. *DR. MACNAMARA: I am aware of that. Shall we have an opportunity of discussing them? *MR. LYTTELTON said there would be the usual opportunities when they were *DR. MACNAMARA: And in the meantime will the Ordinance be in operation? *MR. LYTTELTON: The Ordinance come into operation when these regulations are fixed and promulgated, and when they have been forwarded and satisfy me that they fulfil the pledges I have given to the House. an *DR. MACNAMARA asked whether opportunity could be given to the House to discuss the regulations before the Ordinance came into operation. *MR. LYTTELTON dissented. were far more vital than the Ordinance *DR. MACNAMARA said that that being so, this opportunity was the only one of discussing this matter, and he therefore proposed to take it. These regulations, which were the most vital part of the whole thing, would not come before the House and would not be discussed, there was also a third edition of this Ordinance on 10th February, six days before the debate opened, and the changes in that were material and were the result of representations made to Lord Milner. It was not certain now that the Ordinance had reached its final form and yet it had been promulgated. When the debate took place on the 15th and 16th the Government were showering Blue-book after Blue-book, of voluminous character, on the House, and the Ordinance and regulations were still in process of altera- to be held with regard to the inclusion tion. Apparently, although the Ordin- of these suggestions in the Ordinance ance had been promulgated the regula- or regulations, and he derived some tions which went with it would be laid little comfort from the fact that the upon the Table of the House, but the Chinese Minister would be present at machinery for the recruiting of coolies He protested against this was now in operation in China, as the House being hustled in the telegram of the 19th went to show. He way it had been; was not certain now whether the Ordinance the matter was too grave a matter had reached its final form. The Chinese one which had already caused Minister had made some very valuable great consternation in this country, suggestions and had suggested that they! should be included in the Ordinance. If of the facts he had brought to the he was met by the right hon. Gentleman notice of the House, he begged to the Colonial Secretary the Ordinance move. would have to be altered again, but whether he did so or not the right hon. Gentleman certainly contemplated enMR. WHITLEY (Halifax), in secondtirely altering the regulations to meet ing the Motion for the Adjournment the Chinese Minister, and he desired to of the House, said that recently the emphasise the fact that the regulations Colonial Secretary spoke of the happy that conference. the matter in and and on this account and on account Chinese labourer, who was to be sur-Commissioner of Mines who was sent to rounded by every comfort that philan- investigate this question of employing thropy could devise, and presumably Chinamen. Mr. Ross Skinner said that that philanthropy was to be exhibited it would be desirable to mix up these in the regulations which the House was Chinamen in order to prevent any not to be allowed to see. When it was danger of their combining. Was this discovered that the Chinese Ambassador proposal to be carried out? The fifth had asked for the embodiment of certain Question was, would it be possible important matters in the Ordinance the for the employer to have a truck Colonial Secretary said they were minor system inside these compounds whereby matters and should be dealt with in the practically the whole of the money paid regulations. But he (Mr. Whitley) to the labourers would be restored to the believed that the questions to be dealt mine-owner in the form of charges for with by the regulations were the very food of various kinds? Mr. Ross essence of the whole case and that the Skinner on this point stated that House ought to see them before they certain mines could only be worked at came into operation. He had put down a profit even with Chinese labour, by five Questions which would have to be reason of the profits made under the dealt with in the regulations, and the truck system. It would be possible to House would see that the way the enumerate many other vital points. Colonial Secretary dealt with these Ques- coming under these regulations. This tions would make all the difference Motion was made in order to assert the between slavery and non-slavery. The claim of the House of Commons to first was whether these unfortunate coolies dismiss an Ordinance providing, if not could be transferred or sold without their slavery itself, something alien to the wish consent-whether it would be possible to of the country and approaching perilhave in a British colony agents putting ously near to that condition of things. up the cry in an open market, "Who bids [MINISTERIAL cries of No."] No one for 5,000 Chinamen ?" Surely there could read the opinion of the Chinese ought not to be any doubt left on Minister without a blush of shame. It that point. The second Question was had been left to the Chinese Minister to equally vital. Were the managers of suggest that the use of the lash should. these compounds to be allowed to use be prohibited and that the sale of human the lash as a method of persuasion beings as goods and chattels should be with coolie labour? The Government made impossible under the terms of the were over-ruling the opinion of the Ordinance. The House was entitled to House and of the nation in the an assurance from the Colonial Secretary matter of this Labour Ordinance, and that no single human being would be unless they were successful in the demand engaged under this Ordinance until the they were now making for an op- terms of the regulations had been fully portunity of discussing the regulations drawn up, and laid before the House for before the Ordinance became of effect, discussion. He begged to second the the House would be responsible for a Motion. condition of things from which a most vital provision was omitted. The third Question was-Were the wives and families of these coolies to be confined to the compounds with all the strict penalties and regulations of the labourers themselves? Presumably, they would. Then, would they pay for the main tenance of their wives and families or would they be at the charge of the importers or employers? If the latter, it would be quite possible for the importers to impose a prohibitive tariff. There was a very ominous suggestion in the Blue-book in the Report of the Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."(Dr. Macnamara.) SIR JOHN GORST (Cambridge University) said he only rose to put a Question which he hoped the Colonial Secretary would answer. The jurisdiction of the Ordinance would obviously be confined to the Transvaal. The Colonial Secretary had pledged himself that certain things should be done in China. Certain regulations made by the Government here would have to be executed in China. |