THE SECRETARY ΤΟ THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Deduct Appropriations in Aid Woodbridge): Then I w.ll move the

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last session began with loud declara

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MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dun- £41,500,000, or nearly £1 per head, man, dee) observed that this Vote involved, woman, and child, of the population of though he would not dwell on them, the United Kingdom. A more serious the questions of Supplementary Esti- point was the Vote to which this large mates and Appropriations-in-aid raised addition was being made-because it was the previous day. The discussions which a Vote the enlargement of which involved had already taken place had presented an increase in all the other Navy Votes. problems to the solution of which some The Shipbuilding Vote was raised half-dozen Ministers and ex-Ministers by the Supplementary Estimate from had contributed without, he was afraid, £17,300,000 to £18,600,000, enlightening the House, but he hoped in excess of the whole Navy Estithat the debate that day would result in mates of 1895. New construction their getting answers both intelligible was increasing at an alarming rate.. and satisfactory. He wished the Comyears ago the Government mittee to bear in mind that these Sup- asked for £9,500,000 for this purpose; plementary Estimates could not last year they asked for £10,500,000, considered apart from the original Esti- which the Supplementary Estimate now increased to £11,500,000. He thought mates for the year to which they were to such figures deserved the serious attenbe attached. He was in the recollection tion of the Committee. Notwithstanding of the House when he said that the overwhelming importance of the Navy in the matter of national defence from all parts of the House of economical of the country; and these figures were so some regard must be had to the finances intentions, which never came into effect. vast that hon. Members were bound to After all those violent declarations for ask for explanation and justification, even economy it was his duty to point out as regarded comparatively small items. that last year's original Estimate was He asked for information regarding this the largest Estimate ever submitted for new Vote. What was the million and the Navy in time of peace, and now a quarter asked for, and why was it deman Supplementary Estimate was presented. ded at this time? He thought it was The original Estimate was dumped down more or less an open secret that the bulk on the Table of the House without any of the demand related to the acquisition explanation from the Minister whose of two warships which were built for the duty it was to state the international Chilian Government, but which had policy which made this expenditure been purchased by our own Government. necessary and, having failed last £700,000 of the Vote, he understood, year to elicit the explanations, they required, they, the Committee, were bound to approach the consideration of the Supplementary Estimate with even greater gravity and attention than had been displayed the day before in regard to the Army.

tions from the Government and indeed

He would like to point out the financial effect of the proposals before the Committee. This Estimate, if passed, would bring the total expenditure on the Navy in the year about to end to the highest point yet reached. In his opinion the Leader of the Opposition had under-estimated the amount of the expenditure for the year. The gross naval expenditure submitted in the original and Supplementary Estimates amounted to £37,500,000, but to that must be added what his right hon. friend did not add, more than £4,000,000 under the Naval Works Act, making a total of

was a payment on account of those battleships, the balance of the purchase money falling due in the coming financial year. Then, he took it, that part of the Supplementary Vote was required for repairs and reconstruction, and as to that he would like some information, as reconstruction would seem to point to defects in the original plans. But the second Question he desired to put was of a more delicate nature- Why did the Government buy these Chilian warships? In reply to the hon. Member for King's Lynn on 2nd March last, the Prime Minister stated that the question of the purchase of the battleships referred to had been carefully considered by the Admiralty, who had clearly come to the opinion that the ships were not suitable for their purposes and that it was not advisable to buy them. That statement seemed to

involve the Government in a certain involved he would not press this part of amount of difficulty. Having declared the case too strongly. the ships to be unsuitable, they had now bought them and were asking the Committee to ratify the contract. It was incumbent on the Admiralty to explain why a purchase which was inadvisable, imprudent, and improper a year ago was advisable, prudent, and proper now. It was not the duty of the British Admiralty, with the enormous entrusted to them, to rush in and buy every warship they saw for sale in order to prevent its falling into the hands of a foreign Power. Such a course of action would simply offer a premium to, or encourage the creation of speculative builders of battleships. He presumed it was simply a question of confirming the contract, and that no money had passed.

resourses

THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Woodbridge) was understood to intimate that money had been paid.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON said it was extraordinary that this should have been done without the assent of

Parliament. Somewhat loose things were done three or four years ago when Mr. Goschen arranged a supplementary programme. No Vote was taken in Committee of Supply; but the House was informed of the matter and debated the subject before it was carried out. In this case, however, the battleship programme had been increased to the extent of two vessels, and not only had the contracts been made, but money had been paid, and all this had been done without the assent of Parliament. He did not blame the Admiralty. Another department was here involved, and when a transaction so peculiar was brought before Parliament there ought to be some representative of the Treasury present. The reason suggested last year for the purchase was that it would prevent the ships falling into the hands of a foreign Power, but the Prime Minister appeared inferentially to reject that reason. What other reasons were there? He hoped the Secretary to the Admiralty would throw as much light as possible on the matter, but as delicate considerations might be

The next point would not admit of much development at this stage, but it was a very material consideration. The Committee were asked to add to the already colossal Estimates of the year. If such a thing were done in private life the first question asked would be whether they could afford it. Surely the Committee ought to pause before consenting to this additional expenditure. He hoped that by passing these Estimates they would not be deliberately creating a deficit in the finances of the year. How much of the expenditure here proposed would fall upon the naval funds of next financial year? The Committee were entitled to that information, and also to an assurance that the Estimates and programme, shortly to be introduced, would be reduced by an amount corresponding to that represented by these supplementary proposals. (At this stage the Chancellor of the Exchequer entered the House and the hon. Member repeated his remarks concerning the Treasury.)

MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) held that the Supplementary Estimates did not so much concern the particular department in charge of special items as the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. They represented a financial operation of the most objectionable character, and every good financier who had occupied the position of Prime Minister had done his best to prevent any Supplementary Estimates whatever. This year the gross Supplementary Estimates amounted to £7,800,000. That was a stupendous amount to add to the already enormous Budget. It represented mistake in calculating the original Budget, and, so far as it was a mistake, the Government had, involuntarily no doubt, deceived the House in regard to the financial situation, and by that false view had extorted from Parliament consent to the reduction of some taxes and the imposition of others; in fact they had deprived the House of the opportunity of dealing with the In these Supplementary Estimates the finances of the country as a whole. gross sum authorised was £1,401,500. There was to come off that a surplus of

a

£93,500, and there were Appropriations-in-these battleships were far superior to anyaid (extra receipts) £38,000. First of all, thing we had in our Navy before they with regard to the surplus of £93,500, were purchased. He could not help which represented a miscalculation, thinking, when the First Lord of the and the Appropriations - in - aid, which Treasury replied on the 2nd of March last also represented a miscalculation and that these ships were unsuited to the rea deception. The Admiralty calculated quirements of the British Navy, either that the receipts they were likely to get he must have been misled by the Admirin the course of the year and this calcula- alty, or else the Chancellor of the Extion was exceeded by £38,000. If this chequer sat on the strong box like a bullVote was not passed this sum would go to dog showing his teeth, and refused to let the extinction of the National Debt under them have the money. In regard to the general financial rules of the House; building there were no firms in this country that £38,000 was on its way to the Na- who would venture to produce a battleship tional Debt Office, and it was only by costing nearly £1,000,000 on the mere these Supplementary Estimates that its chance of finding a purchaser. He course to the National Debt would be adhered to his statement that these stayed and it would be applied in vessels were better than any we then had, diminution of the gross Supplementary and better than we now have. In the Estimates. All that was extremely first place, for size and displacement they objectionable and calculated to impair were the most powerfully armed ships yet the control of this House over ex- constructed. They had four 10-inch penditure, and to deceive the public guns each, fourteen 7.5-inch guns, fouras to the total amount spent. All teen 14-pounders and ten smaller guns. such financial proceedings were of the As to their armaments he challenged conmost objectionable and dangerous char- tradiction that they were superior to anyacter, and it was because of this that the thing in our Navy; or any other Navy at country had failed to appreciate the extra- this moment. They were not the producordinary gravity of the situation. Per- tion of the inventive brain of any Admirhaps his hon. friend the Secretary to the alty official, but the production of a Admiralty would be able to give them private shipbuilder. Their armour was some explanation and justification for the equal to that of our very latest battleship, presentation of any Supplementary Esti- the "Russell," and as to speed they were mates at all. There was no explanation even better, for they could do twenty-one in his opinion which could justify them knots, and the "Russell" could only do except one, and that was the sudden nineteen knots. arising of unforseen circumstances since the Estimates were presented. That was the only explanation which the Government would be justified in giving. The hon. Member had accurately quoted the Question he put last year to the First Lord of the Treasury, and the answer he received with regard to the "Triumph" and the "Swiftsure." He gave that answer not as the President of the Council of Defence, but as the head of the Government responsible for the finances and for the military and naval policy. The answer the right hon. Gentleman gave was that these vessels were unsuited to our purpose, but he was entirely of the contrary opinion, and he ventured to say that they were better than any we had. He challenged the hon. Member to state if that was the Admiralty opinion now, or whether it had always been their opinion. He still affirmed that

MR. PRETYMAN: Not

MR. GIBSON BOWLES said that at any rate they were a bit better in speed. Their radius of action was 12,000 yards. In consequence of the great enterprise of the firm that built these vessels and gunned them they were fitted for using a nitro-cellulose powder. The Admiralty being desirous of having everything of the Admiralty pattern had chosen to condemn this new powder. He maintained that this powder was better than our cordite powder, but the Admiralty did not approve of it, and the result was that they were going to make some sort of modification of their cordite powder for these guns He understood that was so.

MR. PRETYMAN: No!