rates charged by the Irish railways was, that while in England each inhabitant on an average twenty-three journeys yearly, and in Scotland each inhabitant made on an average fifteen Main Question, as amended, put, and made agreed to. Second Reading put off for six months. journeys per annum, in Ireland the ST. MARYLEBONE ELECTRIC LIGHTING IRISH RAILWAY RATES. average was only four. If he were to stop here, he should say that he had already made a strong case against the manangement of the railway system in Ireland. But he would proceed. The rates charged by Irish railways on agricultural produce were three-half-pence per ton per mile; on the Continent they were a *MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN (Cork) said halfpenny, and in the United States and he wished to call the attention of the Canada they were one farthing per ton House to the question of transit and per mile. He found that the French railway rates in Ireland; and to move, flax spinners and manufacturers could "That, in the opinion of this House, send their goods from Lille to London excessive railway rates and defective for 28s. 9d. per ton, while the Irish flaxtransit facilities generally constitute a spinners and manufacturers had to pay serious bar to the material advancement from Belfast to London 42s. 6d. per ton, of Ireland, and should receive immediate from Stranorlar to Belfast (86 miles) the attention from the Government." It was a rate was 21s. 8d.; but from Ghent, via mere truism to say that the railway system Goole, Hull or Leith, to Belfast, the rate of Ireland could, and ought to, help power- was 18s. 8d. In Ireland ten barrels of fully towards facilitating and developing petroleum were carried fifty miles at the the prosperity and trade of that country. same cost as fifteen barrels were carried But he regretted to say that at no time from New York to Belfast, or to any had that railway system been a help. other Irish port. Sheep were carried from On the contrary it had always been a Boston, Mass., to Liverpool or Manchester great hindrance to trade in Ireland. So for 2s. 6d. per head, while from Ireland oppressive, indeed, had it been, that it to Liverpool or Manchester the rate was had made the development of trade in 4s. per head. A Galway distiller for that country impossible. The following several years bought annually 1,000 figures showed very briefly how railway tons of barley, grown in the valley of the travelling was discouraged in Ireland, as Shannon. It was shipped on canal, at compared with England and Scotland. various points, for Ballinasloe and thence In 1880 the average Irish railway rates by railway to Galway. The railway were higher by 21.83 per cent. than the company gave notice of higher charges, English, and 27-13 per cent. above the and the result was that the distiller now Scotch; in 1890 they were 22.75 per got his barley from Glasgow. A company cent. above the English, 29-22 per cent. in county Sligo started pressing peat into above the Scotch; in 1900 they were bricks for fuel. The place was 150 miles 37 14 per cent. above the English, from Dublin or Belfast, and the industry and 33.97 per cent. above the Scotch. was killed by a railway rate of 11s. per On 15th April, 1902, Mr. Wyndham, ton. On German lines the rate for that who was then Chief Secretary, acknow- article would not exceed 7s. 3d. per ton ledged the correctness of these figures. for any distance. He must refer to the papers. Eggs were carried from | What a lesson for poor Ireland! Normandy to London, Birmingham, In Hungary one could travel 400 and Nottingham for 16s. 8d. per ton, miles for 88; an equal mileage in from Russia the charge was 22s., from Ireland Denmark 24s., while the rate from Galway to the same towns was 94s. per ton, or nearly six times the rate from Normandy. As to transit facilities, an egg merchant in Leigh, near Manchester, writing on 16th February of this year, said that eggs from Claremorris were often nine days in transit. Bone dust for manure was carried in England 120 miles per five tons for 25s.; in Ireland the cost of carriage for twenty miles of the same weight was 20s., or nearly five times as much. In fact, goods were sent to all parts of Ireland from England, the European continent, and America cheaper than goods produced in Ireland were sent to different parts of the same country. The Irish railways gave a preference to goods from foreign countries over Irish goods. per Coming to passenger fares, they knew that the minimum rate in Ireland was a penny per mile 3rd class passenger. In Prussia the rates were by express trains at forty-four miles an hour, 1st class 170d; 2nd class 1.25d; 3rd class 0.88d. On ordinary trains, which ran twenty-five miles an hour, the charges were, 1st class 1d., 2nd class 1d., 3rd class d., and 4th class d. per mile. In the same country 4th class return tickets, available for forty-five days, were issued one farthing per mile, while civil servants, soldiers, and sailors were carried free. If one member of a family took a season ticket at full price, all the other members of the family could get tickets, not necessarily for the same journey or the same class, at half price. This system had naturally created enormous traffic into the large towns. All kinds of facilities and encouragements were given to the public with the very best results, as the following figures showed. In Prussia the railways were State property. In 1899 the total debt on these railways was £370,000,000; and there had been paid off, since 1882, £146,000,000. The profits from 1889 to 1899, inclusive, were £302,000,000. Twenty-one directors managed 21,174 miles of railway, and in 1900 they made a profit of £34,000,000 as against £18,000,000 in 1898. The profit, in fact, had nearly doubled in two years. cost 33s. 4d. In Austria one could travel ten miles for 6d., 24 miles for 1s., 50 miles for 2s. 6d., 112 miles for 5s., and 180 miles for 7s. 6d.; but in Ireland the lowest charge for 180 miles would be at least 15s. Now he thought he had said enough to justify the terms of his Motion. There were about 3,000 miles of Irish railways managed by a number of directors, variously stated at 135, 169, and 303. He did not know how many separate lines there were, but the number of secretaries stood at ninety-seven, and there were other highlypaid officials, such as solicitors, actuaries, &c., to the number of sixty. Then, each line had a full staff of all kinds, and in the Clearing House, Kildare Street, Dublin, there were 128 clerks. Again, each line had its own rolling stock. What an awful waste was here! But this money waste was not the whole of it. If they compared the Irish lines with the Prussian, which had a mileage of 21,174 miles, they found managed by twenty-one the latter directors; while some English lines, which had a mileage of about 3,000 miles, were managed by one board of some fifteen to twenty directors and one staff. Surely there was something rotten in the State of Denmark so far as Ireland was concerned. These various Irish boards of directors, as might easily be conceived, had no idea of working their lines. harmoniously for the good of the country. Indeed, the way in which they had been accustomed to antagonise each other had long been notorious. He, himself, had had experience of it some time He ago. had to travel over the Midland system, and wanted to connect with the Great Southern and Western system at Athlone, and found that the train on the latter system was timed to start from Athlone just two minutes before the other was due. Now, he asked, could any language be strong enough to condemn a system of railway management which, in the poorest country in Europe, charged goods rates 37 per cent. higher than the average English rates, 34 per cent. higher than the Scotch rates, 200 per cent. higher than the Continental rates, and 500 per cent. higher than the United States of America and Canadian rates. The Irish railway system offered inducements | Ireland, on a Motion for the purchase of and facilities to producers from all parts Irish railways, expressed, on behalf of the of the world to compete on Irish soil Government, willingness to give financial with Irish manufacturers on terms favour- assistance to the companies in consideraable to the foreigner. It was oppressive to tion of amalgamation. On the 30th April, the Irishman, and handicapped the Irish .1901, the present Chief Secretary, on a producer by excessive rates to his prin- Motion regarding Irish railway rates and cipal market, England. charges, said a A remedy for such a state of affairs naturally suggested itself, and that was to amalgamate all the railways in Ireland under one common board. The Board of Trade could easily formulate scheme under which this common board should work all the lines for the benefit of the trade and prosperity of the whole country. And as the scheme would greatly benefit Ireland, that country might fairly be asked to guarantee present incomes to the companies. It is needless to say that the Government should be represented on such a board. In the Irish Parliament, as it existed in 1782 to 1800, the interests of Ireland were looked after, and under the fostering care of that native Parliament, unreformed though it was, and in which only the Protestant minority was represented-even under such a Parliament the trade and prosperity of Ireland made wonderful progress, from which he thought it was safe to conclude that if Ireland were now endowed with a native Legislature they would promptly settle this railway question and the other questions that had so long hampered, distracted, and impoverished their country. This question of Irish railway transit and rates had frequently been before this House. In 1844, Mr. Gladstone suggested to a Commission that "At any time after twenty-one years the railways could be acquired at twenty-five years purchase of the average dividends of the three preceding years." In 1868, he found that seventy-two Irish Peers and ninety Irish Members of Parliament asked for "There is another difficulty showing how closely social questions are interlocked in Ireland. That is the difficulty of obtaining a properly trained without appearing to ignore the claims of Irishstaff for any large Government department men. The question of Irish railways is interlocked with that of Irish education, and if you do not make progress with Irish education you administration of Irish railways." cannot find the technically trained men for the Yet, only a few days ago, the same right hon. Gentleman, on the question of University education, banged the door of higher education in their face. Eight then Chief Secretary, used almost the years ago the present Prime Minister, same language; but neither would help the people of Ireland to that education SO necessary, MR. POWER (Waterford, E.) said he wished to second the Motion proposed by his hon. friend in so admirable a speech, which showed the care and exactitude with which his hon. friend always discharged any public duty committed to him. He did not think any one interested in Ireland could look with satisfaction at the railway system of that country, or the way in which the lines were worked. In the first instance, in a poor country, it was necessary and desirable to Ireland the gauge was very much wider have narrow gauge railways, but in than in this country, necessitating larger cuttings, embankments, and tunnelling, "A general board of management, with a and entailing a great deal of unnecessary view to reduce expenses;" and expense. His hon. friend had shown conclusively that though Ireland was. “For a general and uniform tariff for goods and the poorest country in Europe, its rail passengers." They also proposed that any loss arising therefrom should be borne by Ireland alone. In 1874 the right hon. Member for West Bristol, then Chief Secretary for Mr. J. F. X. O'Brien, way rates were about the highest. They had heard a great deal about the dumping, due to preferential rates and tariffs, which took place in this country; but in Ireland, which traded more with the British Empire than with foreign countries, the rates which prevailed were a great inducement to dumping. So great was the difference between local rates and through rates that he was informed that it was more economical for manufacturers who wished to send their goods to some place in Ireland to send them first over to England, and then back to Ireland in place of sending them direct. The late Mr. McCann, whose loss they all deplored, said that unless the railway rates in Ireland were reduced 50 per cent. there was little or no hope for Ireland. He maintained that if this reduction took place, although at first there would be a certain loss to the shareholders, in the long run it would be economical, double if not treble the traffic would be secured, and there would consequently be the greatest good to the country. Some of the directors were Irishmen, and some were not, but at any rate they were men who were selected as a rule from the loyal minority in Ireland, and they were people unsympathetic towards Irishmen and Irish interests in general, and certainly not 2 per cent. of them would obtain any public position in the gift of the people. But these men managed the railways of the country with little or no regard to the interest of the country. It was absolutely necessary if there was to be any good done in this matter in Ireland that the control of the railways should be placed under some central body. His hon. friend had shown the enormous advantage which the German people derived from the system prevailing in that country. The figures submitted showed that it was a system which was not only for the industrial advantage of the country, but that the Government were enabled to make an enormous sum by which to lighten the general taxation. He knew that some of his hon. friends thought that the remedy was to hand over the railways to State control, and in regard to that proposal he would say that whatever happened they could not be worked very much worse than they were at present. He would give an instance of the utter indifference of the directors in Ireland to the comfort of the people who travelled over their systems. Their carriages were particularly uncomfortable, and, only within the last few years, any servant on the Great Southern and Western Railway who ventured to put a foot-warmer into a third class carriage was liable to dismissal. They could hardly imagine such a thing possible, but he could vouch for the accuracy of the statement because he had personal experience himself of that matter. Although the system was bad at present, he would for his part hesitate long before he would put the control of the Irish railways into the hands of an essentially Government department. A sort of compromise was suggested by his hon. friend, namely, a Board nominated partly from the existing directors and partly by the local traders. So far as Government Boards were concerned Irish Members knew from experience that they were packed by men of anti-Irish feeling who did not command the confidence of the people, and for his own part he thought it would be a mistake to increase the number of these Boards, which would do little or no good to Ireland. His hon. friend the Member for Roscommon introduced this matter in 1901, and on that occasion he reminded the Chief Secretary that a deputation of a most influential character waited on him some months before and asked him whether something could not be done to remedy the state of things. The deputation suggested that a Viceregal Commission should be appointed to inquire. When that point was raised in the House of Commons the right hon. Gentleman said that a new department had been formed, and that, as some powers had been conferred on it, it would only be reasonable to give them an opportunity of using those powers, and seeing what could be done in the matter. That was three years since, and although he did not wish to describe this as chicanery, he would say that he believed that the Treasury was largely at the bottom of the standstill in this matter, and that the department of which Sir Horace Plunkett was vicechairman really had no power to take action in the matter. He hoped that, in his reply, the right hon. Gentleman. would be able to give some assurance that he was alive to the grave interests involved in this question. They heard very much of the resuscitation of Irish industries, and so forth, but he did not Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, excessive railway rates and defective transit facilities generally constitute a serious bar to the material advancement of Ireland, and should receive immediate attention from the Government."--(Mr. J. F. X. O'Brien.) think they could have a proper resuscita- | in two or three respects, and first of all tion of them until this question was by taking up the complaints of traders grappled with, and until traders and and manufacturers with regard to the manufacturers in Ireland had an op- deficiency of transit. It would be portunity of competing, at any rate, on obvious to every business man in the an even footing with other manufacturers. House that an ordinary Member of this At present they were handicapped in House or a trader or manufacturer the way he had described. He begged suffered under this disadvantage. Grievto second the Motion. ances with respect to unfair charges and want of proper facilities were brought forward, but no Member of the House, and no body of Members, had the facilities for getting hold of informa tion that a public department gave. He thought the Board of Agriculture and Technical Education might have continued their labours of 1901, and gathered from agricultural societies, chambers of commerce and shipping, any amount of information, without which it was difficult for any private Member of the House to establish a case. They all knew the general grievances, but when they complained they were confronted with the answer by the President of the Board of Trade that they should bring forward explicit cases When such cases. had been brought forward they had never found the President of the Board of Trade very sympathetic with Ireland in regard to these matters. The Board of Agriculture had neglected their duty in this matter. They should have supplied information to the Board of Trade. They could have helped in the bringing forward of specific instances with regard to the inequality of rates. It was almost impossible for a private Member to get the figures to enable him to make comparisons between the rates charged in Ireland and those in England and Scotland, and also between the charges made by shipping companies whose vessels plied between this country and foreign parts and those plying to Ireland. He marvelled at the industry of his friend the Member for Cork, who had brought forward such a mass of information. He said advisedly, and without any desire to censure the Board of Agriculture unfairly, that the return just issued by that department was absolutely valueless for the purpose of this debate. He found from a previous return that in 1890 the average rate per ton for merchandise in Ireland was as much as 27 14 per cent. in excess of the rate charged for the same traffic in M. FLYNN (Cork, N.) said his hon. friend had referred to the statement of the Chief Secretary in 1901 that the newly-formed department should should be given facilities for dealing with this and cognate questions. That raised a very important question, because that department, so far at any rate as this question was concerned, and as regarded Irish industrial life, seemed to have retrograded rather than progressed. He found that the Reports of 1902 and 1903 were more full and explicit, and showed a greater desire to deal with the question of railways in Ireland, than the Report presented yesterday. That was rather a regrettable fact. He might be allowed to express regret that the right hon. Gentleman who was vice-chairman of the board was not here to explain the inaction of the department. He was not going to censure the Agricultural Department in this matter at undue length. He believed that in regard to ⚫technical instruction they had done useful work, which had been largely supplemented by the work done by the county councils and various local bodies throughout Ireland. But with regard to the all-important question of transit and railway rates he did complain, not in a spirit of bitterness, but of disappointment, that a department which ought to have been the champion and custodian of these particular interests, had really largely neglected the work which was one of the most important features of the work committed to its care. The department might have done much more |