MR. WILLIAM REDMOND asked if the Chief Secretary could give them a list of the seventeen routes, and whether he would leave the means of communication at present in existence in certain districts, as they were until the motor system was introduced. *MR. WYNDHAM said he would give a list of the districts. He would not give the whole of the seventeen routes originally contemplated because some of them had been rejected, but he would give a list showing where they were now. One effect of this scheme had been that the railway companies already had begun to take up the idea themselves, and certain routes which they had been examining had been taken up by the railway companies. This was the case in respect of 32 miles of the route in the North East of Ireland and the railway company were now working 35 miles at Newtowards-Portaffery by motor traffic. There were 20 miles from Derry to Feeny and Park to be worked, and nine miles from Ballymena to PortGlenone awaiting to be worked. From Newcastle to Kilkeel 133 miles were now being worked. Now he came to the lines which were sanctioned subject of course to making the neceessary arrangements with the Local Government Board. One of the most important of these, in his opinion, was the route from Ballina to Belmullet. Then there was another from Ballinasloe to Mount Bellew, and another from Galway to Costelloe. One more route, which would probably be arranged was 14 miles from Parsonstown to Portumna. Other possible routes included 18 miles from Portumna to Loughrea, and 15 miles from Enniscorthy to Kilmuckridge. It was very difficult to convey to the House without a map an idea of these arrangements. In all 220 miles of route were either sanctioned or in course of being agreed upon. They were still in the experimental stage. Lord Iveagh and Mr. Pirrie wished to take up districts where the need was great and where success would crown their efforts. But anyone who had attended to the difficulties involved in this problem would agree that really no time had been lost, and that it was better, in a matter of this kind, to proceed slowly and surely than to rush into a more extensive, perhaps He had detained the House at very great length and he did not propose to enter into further detail in regard to this scheine of motor traffic. He might point out, however, that transit facilities included something more than railways. They had to look to the canals as well as the harbours of Ireland, and he private enterprise would be stimulated hoped that by improving the harbours, to do something. The offer of one company to allow one of their largest steamers on the West Coast of Ireland to call at any harbour which was made fit to receive their ships was encouraging. He wished to conclude his observations by pointing out that all such efforts necessitated a good deal of negotiation. At this moment he was on the point of concluding negotiations with the great Midland Company in Ireland in respect of one of the harbours, but all this involved a vast amount of detailed examination of roads which hon. Members opposite would scarcely conceive. Again, he was in negotiation with the Great Southern and Western Railway for an arrangement by which the Tralee and Donegal Railway would be put into a proper condition. Those negotiations were not quite concluded, but in view of all the circumstances, he thought they ought rather to encourage than to threaten Irish railway companies at the present time. He thought they ought to continue to enforce the provisions of the Acts o 1888, 1892, and 1894 and make representations to the companies. They ought to secure a reduction of rates wherever possible, and resist any increases in every case, and prevent as far as possible any preference being given to foreign producers. In addition to such efforts they must continue to prosecute investigations as to the condition of the markets, whether in Great Britain or on the Continent, and they must continue to give instruction to the farmers not only as to the best methods of raising produce but as to the best methods of putting it on the market. His experience was that Irish railways were too timid, but he doubted the wisdom of holding vague threats over their heads. On financial grounds it was a difficult question to nationalise the railways of Ireland or give them a State guarantee. Their object to pluck up courage and to take their part, side by side with private enterprise, in that development of Irish agriculture and Irish industry which, though of recent growth, was very real and full of much promise for the future. was had no objection to the efforts which the Board of Agriculture were making in Ireland, and he did not object to the new effort which was being made by Lord Iveagh and Mr. Pirrie. They belonged to a noble band of Irishmen who were constantly striving to alleviate human suffering, in Ireland, which had been caused by the neglect of the House of Commons. With the greatest respect for those efforts he objected to the House of Commons perpetuating this infamous railway system, which was paralysing every Irish industry. The House ought either to deal with this question, or else let Irishmen deal with it for themselves. The Chief Secretary talked about preparing goods for the market instead of dealing with these admitted evils. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Motion which had been proposed, for that would at any rate be a step forward. The hon. Member opposite had made a strong speech in favour of the nationalisation of Irish railways and The Times newspaper, which was not much prejudiced in favour of Ireland, had also advocated the MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.) said that at one time it would have been a very easy thing to secure some sort of amalga mation amongst these struggling railways in Ireland which had done so much harm to the country. The right hon. Gentle man had not stated the case quite fairly, for he had said that they complained of preferential rates to foreign countries. He wished to point out that these were not the preferential freights to which Irishmen objected. What they complained of was the preferential rates given to foreign goods brought into Ireland, which could be produced in better quality in Ireland itself, but where there were no facilities at all for cheap transit. If the policy of amalgamation pursued by the Government in a proper spirit there would be no trouble in solving the difficulties which had been presented to this House. Years ago, when the House of Commons considered how the Irish railways should be built, the Railway Com- nationalisation of the Irish railways as mission recommended that they should be built by the State. In 1837 the British railway promoters thought the whole system of private enterprise was in danger, and so they blocked and destroyed all the efforts of the Royal Commission, and supported this foolish system, which had never met with any suc cess of any kind. Thirty years afterwards there was a Commission which reported in favour of amalgamation, and twenty years later the Allport Commission made a similar Report. This House had proved itself incapable of solving any Irish problem on an Irish basis. It was no use the Chief Secretary for Ireland telling them about motor traffic, for it was time the House put this childish treatment of the Irish question upon one side. He quite shared the disappointment with which the right hon. Gentleman's remarks had been received. He Noes, 121. an urgent and necessary reform. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would at least accept the Motion. MR. WILLIAM REDMOND said that as far as railway reform was concerned the right hon. Gentleman's speech must be considered disappointing, although he had listened with very great pleasure to the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman had foreshadowed. He only wished to say that, once the suggested scheme was started, it would be impossible to stop with the routes suggested, for routes were also required in a great many other districts which were quite as deserving of better means of com munication. Question put: The House divided -Ayes, Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Crean, Eugene Cremer, William Randal 87; Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Flavin, Michael Joseph. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Kilbride, Denis Rose, Charles Day Shackleton, David James Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Roche, John Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Layland-Barratt, Francis O'Dowd, John O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Power, Patrick Joseph Redmond, John E. (Waterford) M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin Redmond, William (Clare) Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Blundell, Colonel Henry Brassey, Albert Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gordon, Hn.J.E. (Elgin & Nairn) NOES. Grenfell, William Henry | Hamilton,Marq of(L'nd❜nderry Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) Keswick, William Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh. WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) Toulmin, George Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) White, George (Norfolk) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) Young, Samuel TELLERS FOR THE AYES-Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) Plummer, Walter R. Tuke, Sir John Batty TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Sir Alexander Acland Hood, and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. Adjourned at ten minutes after Speech indicates revision by the Member. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill; Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill; Great Northern and City Railway (Extension of Time) Bill; Humber Commercial Railway ARMY ESTIMATES, 1904-5. Copy presented, of Army Estimates of Effective and Non-Effective Services for Command]; referred to the Committee the year ending 31st March, 1905 [by of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 73.] and Dock Bill; North Staffordshire ARMY (ORDNANCE FACTORIES, 1904-5). Railway Bill; Surrey Commercial Dock Bill. Read a second time, and committed. London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill (by Order). Read a second time, and committed. PETITIONS. LAND VALUES (ASSESSMENT AND Copy presented, of the sum required for the year ending 31st March, 1905, to defray the expense of the Ordnance Factories [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 74.] ARMY (MEMORANDUM ON ESTIMATES) Copy presented, of Memorandum of the Secretary of State relating to the Army Estimates of 1904-5 [by Com Petition from Lewisham, in favour; mand]; to lie upon the Table. to lie upon the Table. LICENCE HOLDERS. Petition from Scarborough, for redress of grievances; to lie upon the Table. LICENCES (RENEWAL). PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899. Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade respecting the Motherwell and Bellshill Railway (Abandonment) Order, and the objects thereof [by Act]; to lie upon the Table. TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES). Petitions against alteration of Law; from Llwynhendy; Wrexham; Stockport; Lincoln (two); Tovil; Keynsham; East Kent; Stanningley; Brynsiencyn; Cilfren; Maesteg; Esgairnant; Betch- Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Conworth; South Norwood; Law; Croy- sular Reports, Annual Series, No. 3122 don; Guildford; Newbridge; Leicester; [by Command]; to lie upon the Table. Lampeter; Gartmore; Llanhilleth; 66 Address for Return of the numbers Gaediffaith; Engedi and Rhiw; Fou- SOUTH AFRICAN MINES (MORTALITY). bridge; Newcastle; Leeds; Newcastle Emlyn; Monkwearmouth; Southall; and Accrington; to lie upon the Table. LONDON GOVERNMENT ACT, 1899. Petition from Islington, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table. MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL. Petitions against; from Penryn, and Tunbridge Wells; to lie upon the Table. VOL. CXXX. [FOURTH SERIES.] and rate of mortality from (a) accident, (b) other causes, among (1) the white miners, artisans, and labourers employed in the Rand Mines; (2) all classes of natives in the Rand Mines; (3) the British Central African natives in the Rand Mines; (4) the natives in the Rhodesian Mines; and (5) the natives in the De Beers' Mines, Kimberley, during the last twelve months for which statistics are obtainable."-(Mr. Trevelyan.) 2 E POOR LAW SUPERANNUATION (IRELAND) BILL. Income and Expenditure of Patent Office- average annual amount for the past ten years of the Patent Office Vote and Patent Office extra receipts respectively received in Great Britain and amount expended therein, and also state average annual amount of Patent Office extra receipts received from Ireland, and state average annual expenditure in Ireland during the same period. "To provide for Superannuation the Treasury whether he can state the Allowances to certain local officers and servants in Ireland, for contributions towards such allowances by such officers and servants, and to make other relative provisions," presented by Mr. O'Malley; supported by Sir James Haslett, Mr. Hayden, Mr. Joseph Devlin, Mr. T. W. Russell, Mr. Condon, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Clancy, Mr. McGovern, and Mr. Lundon; to be read a second time upon Friday, 4th March, and to be printed. [Bill 95.] QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES. Upkeep of London and Dublin MR. FIELD (Dublin, St. Patrick): To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the average annual amounts expended during the last ten years on the principal items in connection with the upkeep (as distinct from the amounts expended on books, stationery, and other requisites for the various departments) of the London Stationery Office and the Dublin Stationery Office respectively during those years. (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The average annual amounts expended from the Vote for Stationery and Printing during the ten years last completed in connection with the upkeep of the London Stationery Office and the Dublin Stationery Office have been respectively £34,220 and £3,058, making a total of £37,278. These figures include the amounts paid for salaries and wages for horses, carts, and incidental expenses, for police, and for printing, paper, etc. I am not in a position to state exactly the amounts spent from other Votes in connection with the upkeep of the two offices; but the following are the estimated amounts taken from Returns printed with the Stationery Office Estimate. The estimated average annual expenses during the ten years for rent, furniture, fuel, and light have been in London £2,957, in Dublin £504. The figures for other items, e.g., rates, telegrams, postage, etc., (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The average annual amount of the Vote for the Patent Office for the past ten years was £63,110, and the average annual amount of the receipt from Patent Stamps was £205,242, of which £969 was from Ireland. The separate figures of expenditure for Ireland cannot be stated. Average Amount of Admiralty Vote- MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the average annual amount of the Admiralty Vote for the past ten years, and give the annual average expenditure in connection with Haulbowline Dockyard and the coastguard service in Ireland during those years. (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The accounts of the Admiralty are not kept in such a form as to enable the information asked for in the latter part of the hon. Member's Question to be given. Any statement on the subject is necessarily incomplete and is nothing more then an approximation. The details as to naval expenditure during the past ten years will be found in a statement attached to the Navy Estimates which will be circulated to-night. MR. THORNTON (Clapham): To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that temporary clerks who were certificated by the Civil Service Commissioners and entered the service between the end of the year 1870 and August, 1871, and were afterwards promoted to permanent posts in the service, are allowed to reckon only half |