children would be greatly assisted. He made. The Committee were dealing with hoped the National Board of Education evening continuation classes, and the would issue at the earliest moment a proper collection of Irish national songs, not only to the evening continuation schools but also to the day schools. In the preface of a folk song book for English schools issued a few years ago, Sir C. Villiers Stanford said "In our wide experience preference appears to be given in the schools to songs of an ephemeral character, or to new songs specially written, from which it is impossible to expect any lasting results; for a sound basis of musical feeling can alone be obtained from genuine folk songs, which have grown up along with the development of the country itself, and it is mainly through their influence that we may hope to develop that responsive sympathy which produces national art, artists, and art-lovers." and he had read that very day a review of Sir Horace Plunkett's, "Ireland in the New Century," which contained this extract "A passionate conviction is gaining ground that if Irish traditions, literature, language, art, music, and culture, are allowed to disappear, it will mean the disappearance of the race; and that the education of the country must be nationalised if our social, intellectual, or even our economic position is to be improved." It was only by proper collections of these songs that the musical capacity of the people could be developed, and it was the only basis upon which useful results could be obtained. He further hoped that the Chief Secretary would see his way to carry out a reduction of the pupils from sixty to fifty as the average number entitling them to a teacher. An average of sixty very often meant a total attendance of ninety or ninetyfive, and one teacher could not be expected to efficiently look after a school with that number of pupils. Finally he hoped the National Board of Education would withdraw the circular relating to the teaching of Irish, in the schools. The Irish language was making rapid strides in the country, and it was because they wanted it encouraged in every manner, and every department, that they urged the Chief Secretary to do all in his power to get the circular with drawn." THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover) said there was nothing in this Vote pertaining to the circular to which reference had been on circular did not refer to evening continuation classes. His views on the Irish language were known, and he need not repeat them. The great increase in the evening continuation schools must be a subject of general congratulation. As a rule, objection was taken to Supplementary Estimates, but he thought this Supplementary Estimate in respect of evening schools ought to be welcomed in all quarters of the House. In 1901 there were only twenty continuation schools, whereas the number was now over 1,000. The development had been so rapid as to exceed the Estimate originally draw up. With regard to the complaint as to slowness of promotion and the inadequacy of the salaries of Irish teachers, he admitted that the promotion was slow, but the remedy was not immediately obvious. The present system had the defect that it had caused a great multiplication of schools. It might be said on that ground that promotion should be more rapid, but that had not been the result. There was no local incentive the part of managers, as the control was exercised by a central body. Consequently all the teachers in excess of the requirements-not of the number of schools, but of the number of pupils-did not get the promotion which they might expect in this country. At the outset teachers were worse paid in this country than in Ireland, but they had better prospects. This Supplementary Estimate gave some support to the argument which he had frequently used, that the new rules as to salary would be found to work out better than had been supposed would be the case. No less than £14,000 of this Supplementary Estimate was due to salaries and to increments accruing under the new rules. It was a complicated system, under which it was impossible to tell beforehand exactly how much any particular teacher would earn, and consequently at the end of the year there were certain balances of salary to be paid. Until some plan was devised for lessening the number of schools where they were excessive, the teaching profession could not hold out such good prospects in Ireland as in England. He would certainly give his attention to the subject, Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow. but it was a matter which would require a good deal of consideration, not only for him, but for Members of the House, before a satisfactory solution could be arrived at. MR. WILLIAM REDMOND said everybody recognised that it was impossible on this Supplementary Estimate to go as far into the subject as Irish Members wished, but there would be an opportunity to do so later. He wanted to ask the Chief Secretary if he could give a promise that, if it was found that this circular on extra subjects issued by the National Board of Education, and in which it was said that no fees could be allowed for languages taught to pupils lower than the fourth class-if that circular seriously interfered with the teaching of Irish to large numbers of small children, he would take steps to change the circular in that respect. They knew the right hon. Gentleman had no power over the Board, but no doubt an expression of his opinion would carry considerable weight. He was very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of the Irish language being taught. The result of excluding all classes below the fourth class from participating in the fees for teaching languages would be to exclude an immense number of Irish children from the teaching of their own language. MR. LUNDON (Limerick, E.) said it was very hard that the Irish language should not be universally taught in the schools. He had been a professor of languages for over forty years and could testify to the value of the Irish language. The proper time to commence to teach it was when the pupils were quite young, and, if they deprived the youngest pupils of that privilege, it was possible that they would never learn the language at all. He also advocated the teaching of the Irish national songs. The Irish were a musical race, and it .would be the greatest pity to deprive them of the pleasure and advantage to be gained from a study of music. And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House. EVENING SITTING, TECHNICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) (EQUIVALENT GRANT). of the amount MR. SHEEHY (Meath, S.) said that any hon. Member who followed the story of the way in which Ireland had been treated in regard to the equivalent grant with respect to Irish technical education. would see that all through the piece a system of chicanery had been pursued by the authorities with the collusion of the Treasury. As everybody knew, although Technical Education Act Was the passed in 1889, no money passed under that Act to Irish education. By Clause 3 of that Act, however, the local authorities of England and Wales were permitted to levy a rate on the locality, which was limited to one penny in the pound, and the equivalent collected in the locality was granted by the Treasury. In the following year, 1890, by some extraordinary means, a sum of £1,304,000 derived under the Customs and Excise Act was placed at the disposal of Parliament and appropriated in the proportions of 80, 11, and 9. England received £1,043,200, Scotland £143,440, and Ireland £117,620. Whilst a certain proportion of the English and Scotch grants were devoted to technical education, the corresponding proportion allotted to Ireland did not go in that direction. A part of it was devoted to increasing the salaries of the teachers in the national schools, and some was used by the Treasury to pay off an old debt of the Treasury to the national school teachers in regard to their claims for superannuation. Owing to the special regulations made in respect to Ireland with regard to this grant, the operation of the Act of 1889 in Ireland became impossible, and the local bodies had to resort to all kinds of expedients to secure the grant at all. It was not till ten years after the Local Government Act was passed for England and Wales that a similar Act was passed for Ireland, and under that Act the country for the first time was able to secure large grants and give a really good start to technical education. In was due to the action of the local boards; the previous year the functions of the it was due rather to the manner in which Science and Art Department had been the Minute was drawn and the way in transferred to the Board of Agriculture which the boards had been constituted. and Technical Education, and within a The Treasury, he asserted, had used some year it was discovered that, although the part of the Irish fund to pay off old debts functions of the Science and Art Depart due to the teachers of Ireland, and ment with regard to technical education Treasury jealousy and jugglery had conwere so transferred, no funds had been tributed to the impoverishment of transferred to carry them out. For ten Ireland in the matter of technical educayears after the passing of the Technical tion. Every step taken by the local Education Act, England and Scotland bodies to assist this education had been had full advantage of the fund for tech- thwarted by the Treasury. Deputations nical education, with the result that had waited on the Chief Secretary, and England had received some £10,000,000 although the right hon. Gentleman had and Scotland £800,000, hut Ireland consented to make an annual grant during that period only received some there was nothing to secure the £80,000. It might be said that Ireland payment of the money which they had received all she was entitled to claimed. The Treasury had in fact disunder the Act, but what they complained obeyed Parliament in this matter by of was that ever since the passing of the retaining the money which should have Act of 1889 the Treasury, with the collu- been applied to technical education, or by sion of the Science and Art Department, spending it illegally. England and Scothad through a policy of chicanery kept land had had their share of this moneythe grants to which Ireland was en- and an immense share it was-but it titled from benefiting her. Year after had been witheld from Ireland. There year the sums which under the Act was no class of his countrymen at the should have been devoted to tech- present time which did not feel that nical education had been devoted to Ireland had been most unjustly treated other purposes entirely. From 1890 to in this question, and only that day 1897 the Treasury obtained from this he had received a telegram from House £58,629 for technical educa- a Conservative gentleman-a memtion in Ireland, not a penny of which ber of a county board, congratulating was spent for that purpose. He desired the Irish Party on the action it was to know what had become of that taking. His case was that the Treasury money and why had Ireland by this had persistently and by every device special regulation been deprived of it. within its power secured that as little of So far as England and Scotland were this money as was possible should go to concerned that money was given annually, Ireland, and he now claimed that they but when it came to Ireland a new system should receive, not an empty promise or was adopted and they were told that the guarantee, but a distinct pledge that grant was to terminate in 1904. Credit the wrong done should be repaired, and had to be given for the fact that the Chief that the money which belonged to Ireland Secretary shared the views of the Irish -£58,629-should be at once placed at representatives on this matter. but unfor- the disposal of the Irish Board to be tunately he was powerless to alter it. It dealt with for technical education purhad been said that the local councils did poses without interference from the not use the power they had to strike a English Department. They wanted some penny rate and demand the equivalent form of finality in this matter; they grant from the Treasury. That was true, desired to put an end to this diabolical because at the time, before the Irish treatment of Ireland, and they would conLocal Government Act, the local bodies tinue the struggle until they got their of Ireland were the old grand juries, who rights. He begged to move the Resoluwere only representative of property, and tion standing in his name. they were not likely to strike a rate which would affect their property. It did not lie with hon. Members opposite to claim that the loss to Ireland during all these years MR. JOYCE (Limerick) seconded the Motion. Time and time again the question of Irish education had been brought Now he had a few words to say as to the equivalent grant. Before 1898 Ireland was undoubtedly entitled equally with the rest of the United Kingdom to the share in this grant, but as a matter of fact it had been withheld from them, with the result that the Irish committees had been crippled and had had to work under unfair conditions. He thought they had a very strong case. It might be said that the £55,000 a year was given in lieu of those rights, but that was not understood by anyone, and the Department formally announced to the committees that it was still open to them to earn the other grants in addition to the £55,000. He instanced the Limerick committee as one which, acting on the suggestion and with the approval of the Department, formulated and put into operation a portion of the scheme, on which they were spending £2,000 a year with admittedly excellent results. of that sum £288 came from a penny rate, and £288 from the equivalent grant, the balance being from the Department, fees from certain science and art payments, and the income from a public hall, which they owned themselves, and which they gave free for technical education purposes. forward in that House, and he often asked He was present when Mr. Plunkett prehimself the reason why. This was only sented the prizes to the pupils in the one phase of the educational problem Limerick Technical Schools, and when in Ireland, and whenever they tried he paid a very high tribute to the to solve these problems they were pupils for their proficiency in always met with the plea that there was various classes they had attended. no money available for Irish education. That fact alone should make the Treasury Whether it was a question of technical, recognise that their claim was a just one, primary, or higher education in Ireland it and accede to their wishes. was all the same, there was no money to spare. In England money could be found for any purpose that was desired, even for the purchase of battleships which were not required, but when it came to providing technical schools in Ireland, red tape and Government officialdom blocked the way. Now the Irish Members had set themselves to try and find a remedy. They had public opinion in Ireland solidly at their back and technical education committees all over the land had passed resolutions denouncing the action of the Treasury and of the Government in trying to withhold a certain portion of the grant to which they were entitled. The technical education committee of his own city-of which he had been a member for years-had, on the motion of the Catholic priest, seconded by the Protestant minister, passed one of those resolutions. That showed conclusively that this was not a Party or sectional question, but that it was one in which all were deeply interested. Naturally, they in Ireland looked abroad to see how other places were situated in this matter, What was done in the matter of technical education in England, for instance? How much money was spent on it in London alone? Had he not been an Irishman be might have been tempted to wish himself a Londoner, in order to enjoy the educational benefits there to be obtained. In England the technical schools. catered for generously, and even lavishly, but in Ireland they were cribbed, cabined, and confined. What had they done in Ireland with the limited means at their disposal? Some years ago technical education was almost unknown in Ireland. There were a few small schools struggling along in a haphazard fashion, but when the people got local self-government they soon took advantage of the Act, and put in force their rate-levying powers, in order to secure technical instruction for the people. Quickly the schools which were established became successful and the attendance of the pupils rapidly increased. were The income of the committee and the expenditure on the scheme were now equal, and the withdrawal of the equivalent grant would necessitate the dropping of nearly £300 a year. Besides, the city would be saddled with the penny rate, which was agreed to on the express understanding that an equivalent sum would be forthcoming from South Kensington. Now the Treasury stepped in to filch away £300 of the miserable income at the disposal of the city. It was no answer to say that the money could be got out of the development graut. That money was due to Ireland independently altogether of the equivalent grant. He asked the Secretary of the Treasury to say whether Ireland's right to the equivalent grant had been revoked by the Local Government Act or the Technical Instruction Act, and, if so, what was the clause or section in either of those Acts revoking it. Hon. Members from Ireland claimed that this money was justly due to Ireland, and he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would not indulge in sympathetic speeches as the Chief Secretary did so often, but that he would give them some practical sympathy, and show that the claim now put forward would be fairly met. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, the action of the Treasury in withholding the Irish Equivalent Grant for Technical Education is a violation of the intention of Parliament and a gross injustice to Ireland." (Mr. Sheehy.) of the Government who had been discussing the matter for two or three years with the representatives of Irish public opinion, was absent from the House. He therefore, on behalf of the representatives of Ireland, entered a protest against the way in which this debate had been treated by the Chief Secretary. He was embarrassed in saying the few words he had to say in the absence of the Chief Secretary. What he desired to do was to quote the right hon. Gentleman's own words. The strongest case that could be made out in favour of the Irish claim was to be found in the speeches of the Chief Secretary. On 1st April last year in this House the right hon. Gentleman spoke on the Irish development grant, and in showing the necessity of the treatment he proposed for that grant, he, as a proof of the way Ireland had been, so to speak, swindled by the Treasury in past times, instanced this very question of the equivalent grant for technical education. He said 66 was only able to spend £71,900 on technical education, and out of that comparatively insignificant sum no less than £55,000 was expended in the last year.” MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford) said he desired in the first instance to express his intense surprise at the absence of the Chief Secretary. The AttorneyGeneral for Ireland was there, but he was What is the result? In the nine years in not concerned in the discussion of this the case of England between 1892 to 1900, matter, and could scarcely be said to ade- sums amounting to £6,276,404 were devoted to quately represent the Irish Government in technical education in England and Wales. Ireland lost two years altogether in that this matter, which was one of vital import-period; but in the remaining seven years she ance to Ireland. It had been brought before the Chief Secretary by deputations representing every class, creed, and shade of politics in Ireland, and the right hon. Gentleman had repeatedly expressed the Then he went on to say that Ireland, greatest possible sympathy. He would because she was not in a position to gather from the expressions of the Chief spend the money that rightly came to Secretary that he had been engaged in her, was immediately robbed of the sum some sort of controversy with the altogether. When last autumn a depuTreasury on the matter, and that might tation waited on the Chief Secretary in be the reason for his absence, but it was Dublin Castle-a deputation representnot a reason which justified his absence. ing all the county councils in Ireland It was nothing short of a scandal that a and men of all Parties and classes in discussion should take place on this sub- the country-the right hon. Gentleman ject in the absence of the principal made a most sympathetic reply and representative of the Irish Government. said that he would for the moment put They were dealing in this matter forward what he presumed would be primarily with the Treasury, and he was the argument of the Treasury, on which, sure those representing that Department by inference, at all events, he poured would bring to the subject an contempt. The right hon. Gentleman unprejudiced mind and an went on to point out the history of this thing. anxiety to do what was fair. He had no doubt that the Secretary to the Treasury had tried to make himself acquainted with Although his hon. friends who the merits, but he had not been con- moved and seconded the Motion had cerned in this matter; it was quite put the case clearly and emphatically new to him, and the responsible officer he thought it would be well to summarise |