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cellor of the Exchequer, that no oaths should be administered, and that the matter should be quietly arranged. By the Act of Indemnity which had been passed this year, a clause had been introduced, providing for this difficulty; and the question was by that clause fully decided. In conformity with the altered state of circumstances, he had prepared a Bill for the regulation of the Officers of the Excise, and he should soon bring it under their Lordships' notice.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, the Act of Indemnity was passed as a matter of course, and he did not know whether the alteration, mentioned by the Noble Earl, would indemnify all the parties concerned.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained, that there had been no alteration in the Act of Indemnity. By some chance or other, the 12 and 15 of Charles II. had never been inserted in the Act of Indemnity, and this year that oversight had been remedied, and these acts inserted.

Lord KING hoped, before the Noble Earl brought in his Bill for the regulation of these offices, he would take care to obtain the consent of the Noble and Learned Lord; or, if he did not, the Bill would not pass. Without this necessary precaution, the Noble Earl might suffer another discomfiture. At present, many people were in doubt which was the strongest side, and many persons were anxious to know where power and authority were deposited. There were many Irish persons, many Scotch persons, many English, in that House, who were all extremely anxious to know where the power of the Government is deposited. At present he was reminded of a case in mechanics in which the centres of gravity and of suspension did not coincide, and great alteration might be expected. A Noble Lord had lately made a happy application of a quotation, of which a part he thought would apply equally well to the two Noble Lords-"Divisum imperium cum Jove Cæsar habet." The Learned Lord divided power with the Cæsar on the other side. Now, if he were permitted, he would give Cæsar a little advice, which was to make their Lordships render unto Cæsar the votes which were Cæsar's, or he would find the divider of his power, like a giant refreshed, not by sleep and wine, but by two victories, act the same thing over and over again-the Ministry-dispelling Chancellor, who had called them together by the stroke of his pen, and he would teach them that by the same pen he could disperse them.

Lord CLIFDEN and Lord DARNLEY each said a few words which were inaudible below the Bar. We understood the former Noble Lord to complain of the ano.

maly which existed between the officers of different departments.

Lord HOLLAND wished to say only a few words on the question. The Noble Lord's motion was to ascertain what instructions had been given to dispense with taking certain oaths. The Noble Lord opposite assured their Lordships that the irregularity had been corrected by the Indemnity Bill. A clause had been introduced, of which, not only his Noble Friend, but other Noble Lords, seemed to have taken no notice; a clause, too, for indemnifying those who had violated the sacred structure which so many efforts were made to preserve untouched. He was surprised that the guardians of the laws in that House and elsewhere, who paid so much attention to preserv ing that structure entire, who would on no account allow the stones to be displaced, should have taken no notice when they found the pebbles and the cement carried away by the insects in office, and that they should have allowed in quiet the edifice to be defaced and undermined. The underlings of office were now, in breach of the law, doing that in secrecy and clandestinely, for doing which publicly, King James II. was expelled from the Throne. If the law was so bad, as he thought it was, that it ought not to be executed, it would be better openly to amend it than use this dispensing power. He was surprised that the Noble Lord at the head of the Cabinet should have done something so greatly to alarm the guardians of the Church, and he was still more surprised that there were none of those guardians present in the House to take care of the interests of the Church while statements of so extraordinary a nature were made. It was, as his Noble Friend said, difficult to find where the seat of authority was in that House, as difficult indeed as to find where in the human body was the seat of the soul. Formerly it was the aristocratical opinion that the power of that House resided in every Member; he, for his part, was disposed to believe that it was all in the brains of those who sat on the upper benches of the opposite side. Sometimes it appeared that authority came from those benches which then appeared to be the soul of the House, the divina parti. culum aurie. On other occasions the power was in the middle benches, the media regione. He must say that it was difficult for him to decide where the authority rested; and though his Noble Friends might not find amusement in this, there might be some people out of doors who would make it a matter of ridicule and laughter. For the Noble Earl opposite, indeed, this circumstance should occasion any thing but pleasantry,

and he must find this state of doubt, and the nicely-balanced state of that House, a most disagreeable spectaculum. He would, however, call their Lordships' attention to what they were doing. Yesterday when his Noble Friend brought forward a measure to remove an anomaly attended by most serious consequences, by an Act of the Legislature, he found a majority of their Lordships alive to the safety of their Church. Now, however, when the clerks take on themselves to dispense with these oaths, the Bill of In. demnity made all good. It might be very good fun to laugh at jokes, very good fun and sport, but was there now to be no anxiety for the Church? Those oaths, which were thought last night by the Noble and Learned Lord to be so indispensable, and which had never been dispensed with from the time of Henry the Eighth, were all at once found to be entitled in one case to no observance. This was a strange exhibition. He thought their Lordships would do well to put a stop to similar proceedings by getting rid of all those tests which, founded on religious differences, begot a system of perjury and oppression throughout the country. He would have them got rid of openly, and not by secret arrangements. They only served to make some men proud of their "little brief authority," and make them think other men had no right to the enjoyment of any privileges, unless enjoyed by their special grace and

favour.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, as to the objections made to the Bill of Indemnity for not enforcing certain oaths, it was done every year. He was not then saying whether it was right or wrong, but for more than a century it had been the uniform practice of Parliament. The dif ference between the present Act of Indemnity and the former one was this: it had happened, he did not know from what cause, whether from ignorance or oversight, but it had happened that the Act requiring Oaths to be taken by Officers of the Excise had been omitted; and in the last Act of Indemnity, the 12th and 15th of Charles II. were inserted. As to the Bill he was to introduce, he thought it would be readily admitted that there was no reason why the officers of the different departments of the administration of the revenue should be under different regulations.

tering on office, while a certain time was allowed for complying with the latter. The Act of Indemnity was only for not taking the sacrament, and did not apply to the oaths. The particular Acts to which his Noble Relative had referred, did not allow any person to meddle with any of the duties of the excise who had not taken these oaths. And though the Act of Indemnity might indemnify those who had done so, he did not believe it could indemnify those Commissioners who had allowed them to be in office without taking the oaths. The Act could not cover the Commissioners. Either the laws imposing these oaths were good and ought to be observed, or they ought not. The Noble Lords who were so anxious to prevent the Bill of his Friend from passing, who opposed the Bill, shewed that they thought them necessary; but if they were evaded from year to year, that was a proof that they were not necessary to the safety of the State. As for their being a slight evil, as alleged by some Nobles, he was sure all their Lordships must feel, and more particularly those Noble Lords who had been elevated to the Peerage, that it was a very serious punishment to be declared incapable of serving their King and Country-a punishment which ought only to be inflicted on those who had been guilty of the most detestable crimes. This sentence, if he had quoted it right, was contained in a Report of their Lordships' House, and that Report was drawn up by Lord Somers. Unless their Lordships were prepared to deride the wisdom of their ancestorsunless they were prepared to pay no attention to the words of Lord Somersthey must admit that this declared incapacity was only proper for punishing the most detestable crimes, and they could not continue to impose this incapacity on innocent men without being guilty of the most glaring injustice.

Lord HOLLAND reminded their Lordships that the Test Act imposed three tests on persons appointed to certain of fices-that they should take the oath of allegiance, the oath of supremacy, and should take the sacrament according to the form of the Church of England. The two former were to be taken before en

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE declared his resolution to persevere in calling for the information for which he had moved. As far as he was acquainted with the subject, he did not suppose the Act of Indemnity could extend to those who had been the cause of this violation of the law. He had learnt from a high authority, that in cases in which it was the manifest intention of the Legislature to exclude Papists from certain offices, that a misdemeanor was incurred by those persons who, knowing any parties to be Papists, were the means of promoting them to these offices. There could be no doubt that it was the intention of the Legislature, by the Acts to which he had referred, to exclude Papists from offices in the Excise. He thought such restrictions ought not to exist, but he would not have

them abolished under-hand by some secret arrangement, but openly, and he, by the authority of Parliament, would obviate the gross absurdity.

The Earl of RoSSLYN said, the Acts of Charles the Second imposed a duty on certain persons, and those who were bound and did not see it enforced, were guilty of a misdemeanor.-The Act of Indemnity recited certain Acts which had been violated, and granted for this violation an indemnification, but he did not understand that it granted any indemnity to those who had suffered that violation.

The Returns moved for by the Noble Marquis were then ordered.

MAY 31.

Lord LIVERPOOL said he rose to introduce a Bill, which circumstances, to which an allusion had been made on a former eveuing, proved to be indispensable. The Bill he had to propose was to relieve Of ficers of the Excise, indeed of the Revenue in general, with the exception of the Chief Board, from the necessity of taking the Oath of Supremacy. Such a measure he felt called for by a regard to good order as well as the particular circumstances in which by recent arrangements a portion of the excise officers were placed. No inconvenience or apprehension could arise from its adoption at any time; but, under existing circumstances, the Bill was indispensable. He should not confine it to the officers under the department of excise, but extend it to all officers of the revenue, with the exception of the Chief Board. Under its operation it would only he necessary for such officers to take the Oaths of Allegiance, and the oaths of office on the acceptance of their appoint

ments.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed his satisfaction at the proposition of the Noble Earl. It was much more desirable to effect thus, in a direct manner, what circumstances compelled them to do in directly. Of the three measures which his (the Marquis of Lansdowne's) propo sition embraced, there were two which the House had expressed no objection to. It was almost unanimously agreed that some legislative measure should be proposed, granting to his Grace the Duke of Norfolk the right to exercise the powers of Earl Marshal. The other part of his proposition was the very measure now introduced by the Noble Earl (Liverpool). It was to him most satisfactory, that opposed as his motion was, yet, that in the admission of their Lordships two out of three of its objects were still to be accomplished. The necessity of the present Bill was the more obvious in consequence

of an omission in the late Bill of Indemnity. In that Bill the Act of the 15th of Charles the Second was omitted. By that omission, the very purpose to which the present measure gave a direct operation, could not be carried into effect even indirectly.

Lord KING thought his Noble Friend was a little premature in supposing that the Bill just introduced was certain to pass, because it was introduced under the auspices of the Noble Earl at the head of the Treasury. Looking at recent decisions, the probability was rather the other way. There was so much dissension in the troops, so much anarchy in the camp, that the Commander-in-chief had lost all controul. Who would have expected such a falling off from the redoubtable Minister who had once menaced to march to Paris?

"Quantum mutatus ab illo !"

How must the Noble Earl, on those two memorable motions, have felt, when he found himself not alone deserted by that array of politicians who generally voted with the Treasury, but even by the Swiss of the Household, who hung on to any Ministry? The truth was, that the Noble Lord was so defeated even by his own friends, that he could scarcely be looked upon as in possession of any influence; he was not even a fit associate for the Holy Alliance. To talk of the opposition in Parliament, was now absurd; the only efficient opposition the Noble Earl had to contend with, was in his own camp. It was in vain for the Noble Earl, from his seat at the Treasury, any longer to indite those once-persuasive notes, viz.-" Your attendance is earnestly requested on the second reading of such a Bill."

"They are false as they are fair,

Do not longer say it there." Policy, however, should have induced the Noble Earl to keep these dissensions concealed; it was not so very beneficial a spectacle to exhibit to the public. The Romans were a wise people, and they made it a positive ordinance, that whatever dissensions might take place between the Augurs, they should be concealed under a penalty.

The Bill was then read a first time.

New Churches' Bill.

(On this Bill, which has passed, there were several debates in the Commonsthe following are accounts of the most interesting of them.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
APRIL 9.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the House should resolve it

self into a Committee on the Building of Churches Act.

Mr. HOBHOUSE said, before the Speaker left the Chair, he begged to know if the forms of the House would permit him to move some resolutions now, or when the Right Hon. Gentleman had moved his ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could only move his resolutions in Committee.

Mr. HOBHOUSE said his resolutions would negative the Right Honourable Gentleman's.

The Speaker then left the Chair.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and said, that he should not have considered it necessary to have troubled the House with many observations, ueither did he see it necessary now to go at great length, had it not been for the remarks which had fallen from Honourable Members when first it was mentioned in his financial statement, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to appropriate a sum of money for the building of Churches. He was a good deal surprised at the disposition manifested on that occasion, and still more at the objections which had been urged. He did not suppose that those individuals who dissented from the Church of England, nor they who believed in other doctrines than those of Christianity, would be very anxious to promote a proposition of the Bill alluded to. But he really did not think there was any thing unreasonable in the propositions which he had submitted for providing money to enable those who professed the doctrines of the Church to which they belonged to encourage those sentiments. He should have thought that to all those who professed Chris. tianity, a proposition which went to promote those views would have been gladly admitted by them, not only as a fit object, but prima facie good in itself. There was one objection which he would mention; it had been asserted that what he had remarked was something almost approaching to blasphemy.-There were different opinions in different minds as to what really was blasphemy. For himself he would not undertake to define what it was. But he would say that the means of giving an opportunity to those who were religiously inclined of attending public worship, did not appear to him to be promoting blasphemy. If there had been coupled with the remark that whilst a portion of taxes was pressing upon the people, it was too much to ask for money to build Churches, and he had been accused of hypocrisy, there might have been less surprise; but how the proposition should have the character of blasphemy

attached to it, he confessed it was past his humble and imperfect comprehension to conceive. Auother objection had been made, which struck him as rather singular, that it would be improper to call upon the people at large to build new Churches, because part of the money Would be contributed by those who dissented from the Established Church. If this doctrine were settled, it would go to the destruction of all Established Churches

for these were always maintained at the public expense. The same principle would invalidate the grants which Parliament had already made for that purpose. The object of these grants was to render the houses of worship adequate for the general benefit, and he could not but think that a laudable object.-[Mr. Hob. house intimated his assent across the table.]-He was happy to find that the Honourable Member agreed with this principle, as it would render it unnecessary for him to combat those arguments which had been adduced a few nights ago. It was certainly very well known that a vote of money had passed for the education of the Roman Catholics in Ireland; and it was surely no objection to the principle of the vote, because we derived no direct and immediate advantage from it. The same was the case with the grant for the Dissenters in Ireland; and when he proposed that £50,000 should be allowed for building Churches in the Highlands of Scotland, in order to support the Presbyterian Church, no objection had been taken. Although he saw nothing in these objections, he thought it necessary to call the attention of Parliament to the advantages which would arise from a further advance of money. Nobody could deny, if the necessity were made out, that it was the duty of the House to incur an expense for so beneficial a purpose as the religious instruction of the people.

Mr. HOBHOUSE.-By some mode.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not conceive any other mode except some assistance were given from the public purse. What were the circumstances in the present case? It appeared from the papers on the table that, notwithstanding what had been already done, there were a great number of people who were without the means of attending religious worship. After allowing a fair deduction for the number of Dissenters, and those who were incapacited by age and infirmity from attending the Church, there were still 179 places, containing an immense population, which at the present moment would more than employ the £500,000; as the means of accommodation could not be calculated at less

1

than as one to seven. The cause of this deficiency of room was owing to the po. pulation having outstripped all the means which could be afforded by the parishes. In many of these parishes the inhabitants were extremely poor, and it would be monstrously unjust to refuse to them religious instruction. He would shew that these people were most anxious to attend the Church, and where the means had been granted, they attended in crowds. If they were left to find accommodation where they could, the House would desert the duty of Christian legislation. He begged the House to attend to what had been already done. He would not say that the grant of £500,000 had proved of as much advantage as could have been wished; but it was absurd to say, because it had not entirely remedied the evil which had been complained of, that, therefore, it had done no good. If this principle were applied to other acts of the Legislature, a stop would be put to all the improvements which might be offered for the public good. It appeared from these papers that the million had not only fulfilled all the purposes which it was reasonably calculated it could fulfil, but that it had actually gone beyond them. In the Report of the Commissioners it was stated that eighty-five Churches might be built, and 140,000 persons accommodated by the expenditure of the million; but it seemed that ninety-eight Churches had been built, and 153,000 people accommodated out of it. A great deal had been done by the professors of the Church of England. They had given £200,000, in consequence of which 20,000 or 30,000 people had been accommodated. Besides this sum, a private subscription had been entered into, by which 13,000 persons had been provided for. Independent of what had been done in this manner, there were numberless instances of individuals hold ing high rank in the Church, who had contributed to the building and enlarging of Churches, although they did not appear in any document. He knew several cases where if these voluntary acts had not been done, a vast number of persons could not have been provided with accommodation. It was unjust, he thought, to charge the professors of the Church with supine indolence, considering the active zeal with which they had laboured in this good work. It might be said that the great number of persons for whose attendance at Church we were now legislating, did not wish to attend—that we were building fine Churches which were not to be filled. This would be a very unjust and inaccurate representation of the case; for in referring to the papers

it would be seen that in almost all the cases there alluded to, the Churches had been viewed by the people as a great blessing, and that great practical good had resulted from the application of the money. The Right Honourable Gentleman then read the evidence of the several Clergymen in whose districts new Churches had been established, in order to shew the benefit which they had conferred upon the people. In the Parish of Blackburn, Lancashire, more than one half of the pews had been let. In the forenoon and afternoon the Church was respectably filled; and although the attendance at the evening service was not so great as might be expected, yet it was increasing, and on some nights it was so full of people that it "could hold no more." In Trinity Chapel, Bath, the attendance was usually very good; and it frequently happened that many persons were obliged to go out from waut of room. But in the evening it was particularly well at. tended, for then the poor people got out after performing their household duties. -At Birmingham the whole amount of the pews was about £280, and from these the payments were £241. The free sittings were always well attended; and it was also stated, that if the duty were well performed there would be no want of accommodation.—In Nottingham there were a great number of Dissenters; but notwithstanding this circumstance, the free seats, which held nearly 1380 people, were well filled. When the new Church of St. Paul was built, it was, to use the language of the Report, "actually taken by storm." In Portsea, the gallery and middle aisles were crowded, and the doors were beset by the poor people, anxious for admission, long before they were opened. Who could say after these facts that the money was wasted; or rather, who would not say that the money was well bestowed in dispensing such blessings to these poor people? In Ringwood a great change had been produced. A great part of the population consisted of smugglers, poachers, and persons of that character-who were wholly uneducated, and were likewise deprived of the means of religious education.

But since a new system had been acted upon, the Sabbath-day, which was formerly a sort of carnival, was a day of order, repose and solemnity. He had troubled the House with the details of these cases, as it had been maintained that the money was thrown away, and that it was preposterous to call for another grant. But if it had been proved that the experiment which had been tried was successful-that the people had become better educated-that they now at

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