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he was deprived of his means of providing for his family and children. But if the legislature were to say to the priest of some parish, containing 500 Catholics and one Protes ant, "After you are dead there shall be no longer any parson in this parish," who would be injured by this? A parson who never enjoyed it. Was there in this case the same injury inflicted as in the other? In the one case you deprive a wife and children of the means of subsistence, they must starve after the father's death; but in the other there is nobody to suffer but an unknown, and perhaps unborn parson. There was no analogy whatever between the two cases. The last difference he would mention, and it was an important one, was, that private property was held on no conditions whatever, there was no duty imposed or annexed to the enjoyment of the right; but the Church consisted of 2,000 office-bearers clothed with a sacred character; indeed, extremely useful to the state-a body of men set apart for a particular service, but who received their property on condition of performing these services, fulfilling these duties, and who might be stipendiaries, or who might be paid by salaries, instead of tithes and land, as they were in most of the countries of Europe. But it had suited the policy of this country to pay them by tithes. As well might the pay of the army, as the property of the church, be called inviolable and private property. The army was a corporate body, larger, indeed, and more numerous than he wished it to be-it was a great public body-it had Chelsea Hospital, and the navy had Greenwich Hospital, richly endowed with land, for the use of the navy under certain conditions; but was it ever supposed that either of those bodies could regard their pay or the property of these hospitals as their's, and to be held inviolably sacred? In the opinion that the property of the Church was conferred by the state for the performance of certain services, and that the legislature might deal with it, when it was necessary, for the benefit both of the church and the state, he agreed with the hon. member for Westminster. After shewing that church property might be disposed of for the benefit of the country, he would proceed to inquire into what the legislature had done with regard to church property. Without going back to the period of the reformation-with-gard to those religious feelings, which were out adverting to the appropriation of the property of monasteries-without even saying any thing of the abolition of tithes in Scotland: where tithes had formerly existed till they were abolished by the Act of Charles the First, the Martyr, the seed of the church, an Act for which he was more thanked in Scotland than for any thing he had done in England, for here he had done many things for which he had suffered, and, many people thought, very justly. But, passing by all these remote times and examples, he would ask, what had been done with church property in Ireland? Had the house forgotten that the Parliament of Ireland passed an act depriving the Church of Ireland of all the tithe of agistment, and that this act was incorporated with the Union? By this act, the Church was deprived of all the tithe from grass land, to the benefit of the more opulent classes, and to the injury of the poorer classes. When the rt. hon. Sec. pointed out the circumstances which led to the Union, he should not have forgotten, that unless this spoliation of the Irish Church had been incorpo

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rated with the Union, it would not have been carried. He was surprised that the rt hon. Sec. should refer to the Union for the inviolability of church property, when this spoliation was recorded in that Union, and when he paid so little regard to the promises held forth at the Union, that the Catholics should enjoy the same privileges as the rest of their countrymen, and that Catholic Emancipation should be granted. Were not these pledges given to the Catholics of Ireland by the Marquis Cornwallis, a nobleman notorious for good faithpledges in which the then Sec. for Ireland concurred? It was true they were given in private, but being so given to leading public characters, they were as binding as any public declarations. And yet these pledges, without which the Union could never have been accomplished, remained for the last twentyfive years unredeemed (hear, hear). But what said the very article of Union to which the rt. hon. Sec. (Canning) adverted, and on which he laid such particular stress? It was a provision to maintain the faith and discipline of the Protestant Establishment of Ireland. The faith, he trusted, the Established Church would continue to maintain as steadfastly as they did their wealth (a laugh). But what had faith to do with money? Much had been said of the compact of the Union between Great Britain and Ireland, and its inviolability. Yet, who that looked at the previous Union between Scotland and England, but must be convinced that it was incidental to such treaties or engagements to be subjected to the future consideration of the legislature? In the Scottish compact, though many of the provisions were left open to the future deliberation of the United Parliament, yet there was one on which, from many considerations of local circumstances, from feudal attachments, from personal feelings, the compact of Union was precise and strict-it was the institution of heritable jurisdictions, which, though guarded by such barriers from interference, was, forty years after, abolished by the enactment of the legislature-abolished, because they were felt to be more oppressive to the vassal than beneficial to the lord. The language of the statute of repeal was, that they were worse than useless-that they were pernicious. He was free to admit, that with realways intermixed with respect to the church property, he would proceed with delicacy; but though that might afford an argument against any precipitate course, it offered none against an inquiry which merely sought for information. Taking the state of the Church in Ireland-viewing the state of the population, who, though obliged to support it, received no benefit from it—in a statesmanlike view, it was most monstrous to say that such a system should never undergo legislative revision. As to the claims of the inviolability of the property, he would ask, was any man so romantic as to expect that any arrangement as to the question of tithes would satisfy every individual clergyman? And yet if all were not satisfied, it was a spoliation of property as to the individual, as much as if the whole were discontented. They were all agreed that that would be a most extravagant length to which any opposition to the relief of the tithe system could be pushed. He had seen some estimates of the value of the glebe lands of Ireland. Some were too professedly accurate to be correct; but he had

The house then divided on the second resolution-Ayes 37-Nocs 126-Majority 89.

Charter Schools.

seen one given in a pamphlet under the mongrel | The schools in question, so far from being ametitle of Philo-Justitiæ, which stated that pro- liorated, were deteriorated. In 1806, it apperty to be 160,0001. a year, independently of peared by one of the reports, that the charterthe renewal of leases. That estimate he thought schools of Ireland were discovered to be, as to be correct. Was it not natural, therefore, they were in the time of Mr. Howard, exceed10 require information whether or not some ingly ineffective for almost all the excellent future arrangement might not be made by Par-purposes of their institution. These schools liament calculated to secure the stability of the were originally founded and endowed with Church, by removing the very natural dislike lands. In consequence of a petition from the which the great population of Ireland must archbishop, bishops, and many of the dignified feel towards such an establishment? That es- clergy, and most distinguished members of the tablishment stood on very different grounds laity of Ireland to George II. the first of these from the church of this country. In this coun- schools was founded in 1734; and seven others try, down to the reign of Elizabeth, the tithes were established in the three following years. were applied to four different purposes-the The plan of founding these institutions carried remuneration of the bishop; the allowance to with it so powerful a recommendation to the the parson; the repairs of the church; and the patronage of the public, that one individual, a support of the poor (hear, hear). In an evil Dutchman, was said to have subscribed as hour the statute of Elizabeth, by throwing on much as 46,0001. three per cents. towards their the people the whole relief of the poor, had support; another person about 20,0001., and interfered with that distribution. But he would several other private characters very large appeal, as a lawyer, to his learned friend, the sums; so that the rental of these schools, in consequence, now amounted to upwards of Solicitor-General, whether by a variety of statutes, tithes were not directly made applicable 70001. per annum. In 1808, a report was made ad sustentationem pauperum. He merely threw to Parliament, signed by the archbishop of out these views of the subject as proper ques- Dublin and other distinguished personages, who had visited these schools, on the subject. tions to be hereafter considered. He should recommend his Iron, friend to withdraw his first In 1817, Mr. Thackery was appointed to examine into and report upon their condition; and The latter gentleman resolution, which, though true, did not bear on the question, and to take the sense of the house afterwards Mr. Lee. contrasted the condition of the children at the on the second (hear, hear). schools on the foundation of Erasmus Sinith, and of the Association for discountenancing Vice, &c. with that of the children at the The former children, though charter-schools, clothed in rags, and fed on the scanty fare of THURSDAY. JAN. 9.-Sir John Newport said, the Irish cabin, were vastly superior in health, that this question regarded the propriety of vivacity, and intelligence to the abundantly faking some legal measure against a set of men fed, well clad, well lodged children at the who had in the discharge of their functions, done charter-schools. With regard to the school at every thing that was unjust, oppressive, and Sligo, the report stated that the commissioners unwarrantable. Upon the management of those found that the master was a man of violent institutions which he was going to advert to, it temper, whose habitual practice was to seize bad Leen his fate now, for twenty-one years the boys by the throat when be punished them, past, to address the house on a variety of occa- and strike them over the head and eyes with a sions. In every case wherein he had exposed in- whip or with his fist, whilst his passion lasted. stances of the most gross mismanagement, and On Sundays they were employed in writing of the most flagrant perversions of the public specimens of penmanship to be laid before the bounty, as connected with the charter-schools Committee of Fifteen, in order that their time of Ireland, he had been combated by gentle- during the week might be devoted to the profit men on the other side, either with evasive pro- of the master, in weaving. The boys were de mises of direct denials. In the meanwhile the terred from complaining to the Committee by existence of the evils complained of was the dread of still greater enormities, as one perfectly notorious; and some idea of their little boy had been severely punished for havmagnitude might be formed when he stated, ing done so. The report from Stradbally stated, that since the Union the public bad at different that on the first inquiries of the commissioners times bestowed upon the support of the char- the boys answered that they were treated very ter-schools of Ireland, sums of money to the well, although examined separately, and in the incredible amount of nearly 600,0001. (hear, absence of any member of the establishment. On the second visit they at first returned the When the house adverted to the rehear). ports which had been, from time to time, made same answer; but being assured of protection to them on this subject, how would hon. gents, if they had any complaints to offer, they all came forward and said that they were very on the other side be able to make out those ashad been sertions of immaculate purity and honest ma- cruelly treated, but that they were afraid to mazement which they had so loudly advanced speak; for that having once complained to the in favour of those who immediately presided Catechist, the boys who had done so over those charter-schools? Unfortunately," half killed" in consequence. On being it was no unusual thing for Parliament to hear asked why they had not stated this on the first Similar language about such matters. Many visit of the commissioners, they said that they Years ago, even when the attention of the phi had taken them for “common visitors." It was anthropic Howard, whose diffusive benevo- proved that about three weeks before the first lence extended to the whole of Europe, and in- visit, one boy had been flogged with a leathern dred of the world, was directed to the charter strap nine times in one day, his clothes being schools of Ireland, promises of amendment taken down each time, and that he received in were held out, and the best hopes were excited. the whole nearly 100 lashes; all for “ a sum in But what was the result of those promises? long division." On the same day another boy

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At another place, a young man had taken a stable for the purpose of teaching the poor, and so crowded was the floor of this place, that the children were absolutely obliged to betake themselves to the manger (a laugh). At the charter school of Clonmel, there were only two scholars and no books; and for a master, one was a cripple, but who had a salary of 501. per annum, and 24 acres of land, at a rental of 25s. per acre-the very next adjoining land, letting commonly at the time of the report at 8 guineas, and now at 6 guineas per acre. Not only were the objects of these charities perverted; but the secretary in effect prevented all complaints from reaching the committee, by refusing to present memorials from complainants. There was an understanding, indeed, between the registrar and the masters of these schools, who made him presents, and advanced monies without interest. In the observations which he had addressed to the house, he did not mean to include all the parochial schools of Ireland, nor to impute blame to the whole parochial clergy of Ireland, but to those who had the superintendance of the charter-schools. He concluded by moving," That a humble address be presented to his Majesty, expressive of the deep sense of regret and indignation with which the house had perused the details of the unwarrantable cruelties practised on the children in the several charter-schools of Ireland, as contained in the reports of the commissioners of education; and praying that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to direct his law officers in that part of the United Kingdom to institute criminal prosecutions against the abettors of those dreadful outrages, as far as they might be amenable to the laws for the same (hear, hear).

received 67 lashes, on a similar account; and | 96 of their children met constantly to be taught. another boy, only 13 years old, had received 17 stripes with a rope. The day before the second visit, eight boys had been so severely punished that their persons were found by one of the commissions in a shocking state of laceration and contusion. The offence with regard to two of the boys, was looking at two police-men playing at ball in the Boy's Ball-alley. The cruel treatment of the other six remained unexplained, unless by the suggestion of the master, who stated, that "he believed the usher might have been actuated in the punishment by his feelings as to what the boys might have said of him on the former visit of the commissioners." These severe punishments were all inflicted by the usher in the absence of the master, and without his knowledge. His absence was excused latterly, by his ill-health; but a better reason seemed to be, that he was fully occupied in the management of three farms, containing together 130 acres, of which only 29 belonged to the society. One farm of nearly 60 acres was two miles and a half distant from the school. and the boys were occasionally taken there to work. The commissioners were particularly struck with the appearance of sullenness and terror which marked the deportment of the children of this school, contrasted with the free and lively air which generally characterized those who are to be seen in day schools. What was said regarding the proficiency of the boys in education was extremely curious and lamentable :-" On examining the boys, they were found able to repeat the Catechism and the answers to it correctly, but attached little or no meaning to the words they repeated. The two head classes consisted of twenty boys, of 13, 14, and 15 years of age; 17 of them declared that they had never heard of St. Paul, and half of them had no idea whether the word' Europe,' meant a man, a place, or a thing (a laugh); and only three boys in the school could name the four quarters of the world. Two boys only appeared ever to have heard of Job, and only one could give any account of his history." The school of Castledermot also deserved notice. "In that school," said the commissioners, we found two boys had recently been severely punished by the master. They stated that they had been set to work in the garden, and having had but little breakfast, they were hungry, and had eaten a raw cabbage: that the master, who appeared to be a man of violent passions, caught them, and flogged them for this offence severely; that one of them received 16 stripes in the usual manner, and six blows with a stick on the head, which continued cut and bruised when the school was visited by the commissioners. The other boy had eloped in conse quence of the beating." The house would observe, that there was left by the late Bishop Pocock, a bequest for the establishment of a weaving school; and the building a place, to be attached to it, for the purpose of affording the scholars religious instruction. Now, by the last reports it appeared, that out of 21 scholars in this establishment, there were only 13 who could read; only six copy-books among the whole number of boys; that the master could not teach, and that there was no usher (hear, hear, and a laugh). Several of these scholars, however, were grown up young men. This was at Newport, in the vicinity of which there was such anxiety for instruction among the peasantry, that at a cabin only two miles distant,

66

Mr. Goulburn said, there was not a sentiment of regret or detestation, with respect to the acts described, which was to be found either in the report, or in the speech of the rt. hon. bart. in which he did not entirely participate. But the question was, whether it would not be better to leave the adoption of that plan which would be most effectual to correct the evils complained of to those whose official duty it was to inquire into them; and if they neglected that sacred duty, then to call for the authority of that house to apply a proper remedy. The report had only been before the house five or six days. No opportunity, therefore, had been afforded to examine the documents on which it was founded, nor to communicate with the Government of Ireland as to the mode which that Government might deem most advisable to adopt. In every page of the report reference was made to the appendix, and the commissioners distinctly stated that the real state of the schools could not be understood, except by a careful perusal of the documents contained in that appendix. He recommended, therefore, as an individual member of Parliament, that they ought to wait until those documents were forthcoming. If, however, there appeared to be a general feeling in the house, that this resolution should be agreed to, before the Government took any step for the purpose of bringing to punishment, as far as they were amenable to law, the individuals accused, he would not raise his voice against it, although he thought it better to leave the subject with Government. The defects of the system on which the charterschools of Ireland were conducted were so

clearly pointed out by this report, that he had no doubt that the noble lord who was at the head of the Government of Ireland, and the members of this commission, would as early as possible attend to and correct them; care being taken to preserve the interests of the unhappy individuals placed in those schools, in the alternative of their being new-modelled or wholly given up.

Mr. S. Rice thought it was impossible but that a general feeling must exist in favour of the motion. If the motion went to criminate a particular individual-the schoolmaster of Sligo, or of any other place-that would form some reason for saying "Let us wait for the evidence." But all the house were called on to confirm by their vote was, that a primâ facie case had been made out, on competent authority, which demanded the adoption of such measures as the law advisers of the Crown might deem necessary, under all the circumstances that had been brought to view. The document before the house was sufficient for that purpose-not for the purpose of deciding on the conduct of any man, or set of men, but for the purpose of calling for the adoption of legal proceedings. He was not willing to leave this question to the executive government. The commission itself was a measure forced from the executive government by the voice of that house. This charter-school system was a spec men of the exclusive Protestant system of Ireland; and therefore, on that point, it was more proper that it should be considered by the house and the public, than it even was with reference to the individuals who were accused The charter-school system on this occasion. had constantly been recommended, both before and since the Union, as essentially Protestant, as absolutely necessary for the support of the In the year Protestant Church in Ireland. 1763, an address of the Lord Lieutenant set forth" that the charter-schools and provincia! nurseries tended greatly to promote industry and the Protestant religion in Ireland;" and since the Union, those schools had been defended on the same principle; and when gentlemen got up and said a word against them, they were accused with being hostile to the Church of Ireland. The truth was, that those schools were nothing more than traps for Roman Catholics. It was by their operation that an attempt was made to separate the father and child, and they had led to the When the rt. hon. gent. grossest abuses. called on them to take no steps on this occasion, was he aware that a report had been made in 1787, with respect to those schools, by Mr. Howard, and that the cases then adduced were as strong as those now brought forward? In consequence of that report, the vote for charter-schools had been diminished; but steps had not been taken against those who had misconducted themselves; and, until that was done, justice would not be satisfied (hear, hear). In 1817, Mr. Thackeray made a report on this subject, and the cases then disclosed atrocious than those now brought forward. The house, however, did not interfere the general incorporation did not interNo fere-and the system went on as usual. less than 1,000,0001. had been squandered on these schools, of which 600,0001. had been voted since the Union; a sum, which, if properly applied, would have educated the whole people of Ireland. This immense waste was

were more

sanctioned for the purpose of keeping up a
exclusive system of monopoly and bigotry
At the proper time he would
(hear, hear)
move, that any sum which might be granted,
should be placed in the hands of Government,
and not in those of the governors of the charter-
schools.

Mr. Peel denied that the commission had
been forced upon the Government by the voice
of that house. He had himself moved for it,
and every individual composing it had been
selected on account of his fitness for the office.
One of these gentlemen, Mr. Glascock, he
never saw, but he had signalized himself by the
strict performance of his duties on a commis-
sion in Scotland; and he was appointed in
It was thought desirable that
consequence.
there should be a Roman Catholic on the com-
mission, and therefore Mr. Blake, a gentleman
of abilities, was appointed. Mr. Grant, ano-
ther member, he had never seen in his life;
and as for his hon. friend, Mr. F. Lewis, he
had, by his exertions, in the course of an in-
vestigation, relative to abuses in the revenue
of Ireland, proved that he was calculated for
this situation. Two inquiries presented them-
selves on this occasion: one was, the policy of
continuing the present system of charter-
schools; the other related to the course to be
pursued in punishing those persons who were
concerned in the abuses noticed in the report.
Now he had no hesitation in saying, from the
facts stated in the report, and from the re-
corded opinion of the commissioners, that this
system did not admit of correction; and that
the legislature ought, as soon as possible, to
extinguish it altogether (hear, hear). Not two
days had elapsed, after the report was re-
ceived, before an instruction was sent to those
schools, not to admit a single additional mem-
ber, but to reduce the establishments as much
as possible. The directions thus given were,
he conceived, a practical condemnation of the
system. Such a gradual and progressive re-
duction would be made in the annual votes for
the children, as would, at no remote period,
put an end entirely to this gratuitous system of
education in charter-schools. That ministers
were not wrong in pursuing the system up to
this point might be inferred from the fact, that
the commission appointed, in 1806, made a
report, in which those schools were favourably
spoken of.

If prosecutions must follow the present report, he would not hazard a comment But if he abwith respect to those whose conduct must be investigated in another place. stained from doing so, it was not because he did not participate in the strong feelings which were manifested against those who were said to have behaved so unworthily. If it were judicially proved that such cruelties were practised as had been described, the dismissal of the guilty individual would not be sufficient punishment. They ought to be punished, not vindictively, but in such a manner as would He had not the least idea of deter others from committing similar offences in future. screening or palliating those who had been guilty of such conduct, and he would at once vote for the motion, if he thought that his opposition would be viewed as indicating a desire to save those persons from punishment. What, however, he would contend for was, that if they were to be sent to trial, they should, not merely for their own sakes, but for the sake of justice, be sent to a perfectly fair trial. To

be tried at the instance of the House of Commons was generally considered in itself a disadvantage; but it became infinitely worse, if expressions of condemnation were mixed up with the address to the Crown. He hoped the rt. hon, bart. would leave out those words of his resolution, which assumed the guilt of the parties. If he did not, he should be obliged to oppose it on a principle of justice.

Sir F. Burdett merely rose to say, that he was perfectly satisfied with the manner in which the rt. hon. Sec. (Peel) had treated the question.

Mr. F. Lewis thought the house ought not hastily to decide upon the merits or demerits of these individuals. The allegations contained in the report on which they were expected to give a settled opinion at that moment, were founded on thirty documents, not one of which had been laid before the house.

Mr. J. P. Grant said, that in order to do justice, it was not sufficient that the parties should have been noticed as they had been by the Board of Commissioners, but it was necessary that they should be visited with more severe punishment, if the facts set forth in the report were true. It appeared to him surprising that the horrors thus brought to light had remained so long unnoticed. In 1787, a report was made from a committee, setting forth certain malpractices which prevailed in the charter-schools. Under these circumstances, he thought it incumbent on the house to express their opinions on the subject, not only as it regarded the schoolmasters, but also as it regarded those persons whose business it was to superintend the schools.

Mr. C. Grant said, that he had always entertained a strong opinion that the system of the charter-schools must ultimately work out its own condemnation. He did not certainly suppose that such enormities as were detailed in the report were in existence, because the system was so strictly under the superintendence of the clergy and the most eminent men in Ireland. But there were evils inherent in the system, such as those of separation from parent and child, and proselytism under suspicious circumstances. At length, however, there was but one opinion entertained respecting the merits of the system. That which had so long been considered the bulwark of the Protestant Establishment, was now acknowledged to be the greatest stigma which attached to it. He was not sorry for that, because he was of opinion, that the more the Protestant religion was relieved from such incumbrances, the better it would be for it.

Justices of the Peace.

TUESDAY, FEB. 22.-Sir H. Parnell moved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the office of Justice of Peace in Ireland. He did not intend to enter on this occasion into any detail as to the conduct of the magistracy of that country, but he thought that some measure was necessary to follow up and enforce the excellent regulations respecting the magistrates which had been introduced by the Marquis Wellesley. One of the great evils which that noble lord had tried to remedy was, that of magistrates acting in their private houses, instead of holding courts of petty sessions-a practice from which the most injurious consequences had proceeded. Independently of this, he thought it necessary that the number of magistrates should be restricted, so as to get rid of many at present in the commission who were unfit for that situation. He was anxious that the leave for bringing in the bill might be a sort of pledge that something further should be done on this subject; but what the nature of the precise remedy should be, he would leave in the hands of the committee appointed to bring in the bill.

Mr. Goulburn would not oppose the motion, but he begged that his assent on this occasion might not be considered as a pledge to support the measure when introduced. This was a subject which he could assure the house had been under the consideration of the Irish government. Persons had been sent into the different counties with instructions to make inquiries on this subject. Their reports had been submitted to the judges, and the reason why no measure had been introduced upon them was, that it was not considered expedient at the present time. But he could assure the house, that where any cases had occurred which called for the interference of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he had discharged the difficult and invidious task in a manner likely to be highly beneficial to the interests of justice.

Sir J. Newport begged to suggest in the proposed bill the substitution of Lieutenants and Deputy-Lieutenants, instead of the Governors and Sub-Governors of counties in Ireland. He wished to see the plan assimilated to that of England, where the Lords Lieutenants of counties were answerable to the Home Office. In Ireland the power was subdivided among a variety of hands without having any regular responsibility.

Mr. L. Foster thought that if the proposed bill sanctioned the introduction of a paid Mr. J. Smith thought that the schoolmasters, officer as an assistant to the magistrates at bad as they were, were not the most guilty petty sessions, that officer not being a magispersons; those who had been overlooked-the trate, it would have a most injurious effect, in inspectors of the schools, deserved that cha-inducing the magistrates to withdraw them

racter.

Mr. F. Lewis said, that the reason why the inspectors of the schools remained in ignorance of the proceedings brought to light by the committee was, that they were deceived by the false statements of the masters of the schools.

The resolution, praying merely "that prosecutions might be instituted by the law officers of the Crown, against those persons designated in the report, as having been guilty of certain cruelties, as far as they were amenable to the laws," was then put, and agreed to without a division.

selves from attendance on that court. Leave given to bring in the bill.

Petition of Bernard Coile.

THURSDAY, MAY 26.-Mr. J. Smith, in the absence of Sir James M'Intosh, presented a petition from Mr. Bernard Coile, complaining of great sufferings and oppression endured by him about 1796, and afterwards in 1803 and 1804, in Ireland. This petition, which was mentioned during the last session, but deferred to give time for inquiry, alleged that the petitioner, being persecuted by the

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