ships abolished altogether: nothing could be more inconvenient, or unconstitutional, than the having the same man one day a judge, the next day a barrister, and the next day a politician.

The house then went into the committee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that all admired and felt the benefit of the manner in which justice was administered in this country, and it was ever an object with parliament that the important situations of judges should be filled by persons in every way competent to discharge the duties of those high offices. With this view the legislature had passed several acts from time to time, pro

Courts at Westminster. FRIDAY, APRIL. 22.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer asked the learned member for Pe-viding suitable incomes for the judges, and reterborough to postpone a motion of which he had given notice respecting the new courts of Jaw. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not aware till very lately that there existed any objections to the internal arrangements of those courts; but he had since learned that those objections were entertained by the members of the profession generally; and as he had every disposition to secure to the gentlemen of the bar every accommodation to which they were entitled, he did not doubt that upon the learned gentleman's entering into some communication with him upon the subject, some plan could be effected that might effectually accomplish the object which he seemed to have in view.

Mr. Scarlett stated, that the objection he had to urge against the court, had been laid before him by a number of gentlemen, who were highly competent to form an accurate opinion upon the subject. His objections were to the contracted size of the courts, and that, not only in respect of the accommodation afforded to the bar, but to the public generally. It was a fundamental principle in this country, that the proceedings at law were open to the great body of the people, and perhaps, no principle was more indispensable to the pure and impartial administration of justice. The size of the Courts Dow erected was so exceedingly small, that in effect it amounted to an absolute exclusion of the people, and, excepting to the profession, trials would be perfectly secret. He should postpone his motion only on the understanding that the subject would be taken up with a proper spirit by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Juages' Salaries' Bill.

MONDAY, MAY 16.-On the motion that the house should resolve itself into a committee upon this bill,

Mr. Leycester said, this was not precisely the time for raising the salaries of the judges, when the hon. gent proposed to make corn cheap and to take off a great number of taxes. He would not, however, oppose any measure which went to increase the respectability and indepence of those learned persons, but he thought the house should avail itself of this opportunity of correcting many evils in the mode of administering justice. By a better distribution of the judicial power, the third circuit proposed might be made out without any additional labour to the judges. By putting three judges only, which would be quite sufficient, into the courts of Common Pleas, King's Bench, and Exchequer, three judges would be left to spare, and thus the new circuit would be provided for. He was also very desirous to see the Welch judge

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moving from their office every thing which could in any degree lessen their dignity or diminish their respectability in the eyes of those for whose benefit they were appointed to administer justice. It was to those two objects he would confine himself on the present occasion. His motion would not extend to the Welch judges. His first object would be to carry into effect a recommendation of the commission appointed to inquire into courts of justice in England-namely, to prevent the sale of certain offices in their patronage by the Chief Justices of the courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas (hear, hear). This was a practice, which he would not say compromised the personal respectability of the eminent individuals who might hold those situations, but most certainly it did not tend to add any thing to the dignity of their judicial characters. It was true the sale of those offices by the Chief Justices was of great antiquity; for in an act passed under one of our ancient kings for the abolition of the sale of offices, the offices to which he now alluded were particularly exempted. But as he did not think that the antiquity of any practice was a sufficient ground for its continuance beyond the period of its utility, he should propose the abolition of the present as inconsistent with the high judicial dignity to which it was permitted as a source of emolument. He would state to the committee what were the situations, the sale of which he proposed to prevent in future, first observing that they formed part of the income of the situation of Chief Justices of the King's Bench and Common Pleas. They were reckoned as income, but it was well known that the emolument to be derived from them was very uncertain. A man might come into office as Chief Justice at an advanced period of life, and find all the offices of which he had the disposal filled by persons much younger than himself: the chances then were, that during a long period, perhaps the whole of his life, not one of them might become vacaut, while his successor, after a few years in office, might derive the advantage of having them all become vacant. This in itself was a strong objection to the sale of the situations, as it was contrary to every principle of justice that that which was considered as part of the salary and emolument of individuals of such high judicial rank should be left to depend on chance (hear). The offices in the gift of the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, and which he was allowed to sell, were the office of chief clerk, a situation of great importance; the clerk of the treasury; custos brevium, and clerk of the outlawries. These were offices of high trust, and of very considerable emoluments, which might now be sold by the Lord Chief Justice. Besides these,

there were a number of minor offices, though dignity, as well as in its judicial importance, still producing large incomes, in the gift of the in every respect inferior to that of Chief Juschief clerk, and saleable by him; and if it were tice of the King's Bench. However, as the proper that the Chief Justice should not be Chief Justice of the Common Pleas would be allowed to sell the situations in his patronage, called upon to give up the patronage of the it was also right that the same principle should valuable places he now held, he did not conbe extended to the chief clerk, who derived sider that 8,0001. a-year would be too much. under him. The Chief Justice of the Common It was certainly more than the present amount Pleas had also a number of offices at his dis- of the fees and emoluments of the office, but posal, a greater number, indeed, than the Lord taking all the circumstances into consideration, Chief Justice of the King's Bench. It was there ought not to be too great a difference benot necessary to trouble the committee with a tween the salaries of the two chiefs; for although detail of them, as they would all be stated in he was not laying down the principle that no the bill which he should introduce. Suffice it Chief Justice of the Common Pleas should be then to say, that the same principle would be promoted at any time to the King's Bench, yet applied in both courts. Another object which he thought it expedient to attach to the former he had in view was to prevent the fees received office sufficient value to check too violent asby the judges from being made a part of their pirations after preferment (hear, hear). Withsalaries. This was wholly unbecoming the out going the length of saying such prefersituation which those eminent persons held ments ought never to take place, he would by (hear, hear). It might happen that a suitor no means wish it to be a matter of course. might refuse to pay his fees, and it would be The next judicial officer to whose situation he absolutely necessary for the judge to take steps should call the attention of the committee was to enforce it, or else to forfeit that from which the Master of the Rolls, who was higher in rank a portion of his income was derived. This, it than the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and must be admitted, was placing those learned next to the Chief Justice of the King's Bench. persons in a painful and delicate situation The situation of that judge was peculiar in (hear). With respect to the fees themselves, this respect-that his salary had not been raised he did not propose to deal with them. He when the last augmentation took place in the would say, let them be collected, as heretofore, salaries of the other judges. This was owing to by the present officers, and let them (after de- the unnecessary delicacy and disinterestedness ducting the officer's salary) be paid into the of the then Master of the Rolls (Sir Wm.Grant). Exchequer, to form a fund out of which part of That eminent person had always declined apthe increased expenses of the new arrangements plying for an increase, or even to state what the should be defrayed. The situation of the Puisne increase should be; and he must say, that his Judges was different from that of the Chief disinterestedness on the occasion had not Justices and Chief Baron. They had 4,0001. met with the reward it merited. But if suffia-year, part of which was paid out of the civil cient justice were not done to the situation at list, part from fees, and the deficiency, if any, that time, there was no reason why it should was made up out of the consolidated fund. not be at the present. The salary which that They were obliged at the end of three months judge received, was not in all 40001. a-year, to make a return on oath of the sums received partly derived from the civil list, and partly in fees. So that, in fact, they were in some from Chancery fees: these he did not mean to sort made public accountants, which he thought touch till the committee appointed to investiwas altogether unbecoming their high judicial gate the subject had presented their report: situations. These were the chief points to which and he laid no stress on the duties which the he wished to direct the attention of the com- Master of the Rolls had to discharge in the mittee, for at present he did not intend to enter Privy Council, or, if he happened to be a peer, upon the other recommendations of the commis- by his attendance on appeals at the House of sion for inquiry into the courts of justice. As Lords: this application was not founded on the sale of the particular offices he had men- particular circumstances, but on the ground tioned formed part of the salary or emoluments that the present salary was inadequate he of the Chief Justices, it was right that a fair should therefore propose to give to the Master compensation should be given for the abolition of the Rolls a salary of 70001. a-year. The of that sale. At present, the fixed salary which same sum he would propose to the Chief Baron the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench of the Exchequer. His office was one of great derived from the civil list was 40001. a-year, importance, the execution of which required liable to some deductions for land-tax, and great talents, not only in his capacity of equity some other fees and duties charged upon it judge, but the administration of common law The remainder of his income was made up of upon circuit. The salary of the Vice-Chancelfees and emoluments from various sources, lor he proposed to raise from 50001. to 6000!, which made in the gross about 9,2001., and de-a-year. With respect to the Puisne Judges, ducting the land-tax and other charges, it might be estimated at some few hundreds less than 90001. It was hard to calculate the value of the offices which he had a right to sell, because to one judge they might produce an immense sum, and to another they might be wholly unproductive. Looking at the situation, at its high rank, and its laborious and important duties, he thought it would not be too high when he fixed the salary of the Chief Justice at 10,0001. a-year, in lieu of all present fees and emoluments. Next he came to the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. That office was, as every body knew, in rank and

he thought that the pecuniary emoluments of their situation ought to be such as to enable them to discharge their high duties in a manner becoming the rank they held. Their present salary was 40001, a-year; but any one who knew what the profession of the law was, who considered its advantages, and the vast emoluments which men of talent and character were enabled to acquire, must feel that the worst policy was to make the judges' salaries so low, that men of eminence, character, and high abilities, could not, with a due regard to themselves and their families, accept the office until they arrived at a time of life when they required

fession, was not a man who would refuse the Bench: he was making a fortune which might thereafter be adorned by the dignity of the Bench: in such a situation he should be inaccessible to every sordid feeling; but no mode was so effectual to produce this feeling as exciting constant hopes and fears. Let it be understood, that when once a Judge, he must not look forward to be a Peer; or if once a Puisne Judge, to be raised to the Chief Justiceship; in fact, that there should be no translations, which, in other pursuits, we had seen attended with such mischief (hear, hear). The third assize had certainly imposed additional expense on the judges, and as far as it had gone, was productive of benefits; but the judges were in a situation now in which he was sure they enjoyed the respect and confidence of every man in the country; and it appeared to him, that the salaries of the Puisne Judges would be raised onehalf, without any proof that a single individual of professional eminence had refused the Bench on the ground of inadequate remuneration. No case had been made out for conferring on them this bonus of two thousand pounds per annum. It could not raise them in the scale of society; they must be contented to hold respectable stations in a middle class; they would still be much poorer than most of those who were then voting the increase, and they would be more respectable as they were than at the tail of a higher walk in society; they must still confine themselves to those purlieus of the town which had recently been spoken of with so much contempt, that one hon. member had said, "he did'nt know of such a place as Russell-square" (a laugh). But with their six thousand pounds a-year they would make but a poor figure in Grosvenor-square (hear, hear). On the whole, he could not conceive any arrangement more likely to place the judges in a situation which all alike were disposed to deprecate. He was ready to accede to the augmentation of the salaries of the two Chief Justices; but, with respect to the others, he felt it his bounden duty -and he need scarcely say how painful a duty it was to resist the proposition, because he saw no good ground for its adoption.

ing a contrary system, was, that when the government appointed individuals to the situation. of judges, at the miserable pittance which was now assigned to them, they often remained in harness until they were quite incompetent to discharge the business of the public. Such an occurrence was an evil of a very serious nature; and he would rather see judges appointed at an early period of their life, and retire when their bodily faculties began to decay, than see them promoted to the bench at the very moment when they were least able to perform the duties of it. But it might be said that there was no difficulty in getting individuals to undertake the office of judges under the present system. Allowing that to be the case, still it did not affect the view which he was taking of this question. The great dignity of the situation was calculated to render it an object of desire to many members of the profession; but was that a reason why an individual should be allowed by the public to sacrifice in its service that time and that talent which every man ought to render profitable to the interests of his family? It was an unjust barter to make any man give up to the public, without adequate remuneration, that time and those exertions on which his family had a powerful, and he would also add, a legitimate claim (hear). For this reason, and many more, he greatly approved of the addition which the rt. hon. gent, opposite proposed to make to the salary of the Puisne Judges (bear); nor was he convinced by the arguments of his learned friend (Mr. Denman) that a difference ought to be made in the salaries of the judges of the different courts. His opinion was that a more desirable method than that of apportioning the salaries of the judges to the quantity of business transacted in their respective courts, would be to make the Court of Common Pleas and the Court of Exchequer share the business of the Court of King's Bench; and instead of overloading that court with a quantity of business which it could not well perform, to provide for such a general distribution of suits among the two other courts as would ensure to them all a fair equality of labour. The obstacles to such an arrangement were not very important. There was a diffculty in the way of throwing additional basiness into the Court of Common Pleas, because no person could plead in it who was not a setgeant. He for one could see no reason why that monopoly should not be broken up (hear). There was also a difference between the amount of the costs paid in that court and in the Court of King's Bench. With regard to the Court of Exchequer, all its business must be transacted by a certain number of privileged clerks; and in consequence of the suitors having to pay. not only the fees of their own attorney, but also those of the clerk of the court, very few actions were commenced in it. Now, if all the courts could be placed on an equal footing, and could be made equally economical to the disputants, he could see no reason save one, why the business of the country should not be equally dis

Dr. Lushington regretted being obliged to differ from any of those friends with whom he was in the general habit of voting. He entirely differed from his learned friend, and it was because he thought that the dignity of the bench would be increased by the proposed addition to the salaries, that he supported the motion. It was said that the judges had not complained of their present salaries. It was true they had never degraded themselves by a petition to the house or to government for an increase; but if it were meant to be asserted that they did not feel the inadequacy of their present salaries, he must from his personal knowledge give the assertion a direct denial. In order to ascertain whether or not the salaries were adequate, the house must estimate the quantity of duties to be discharged by the judges and the expense incurred by them. The labour and expense of the assizes had been materially in-tributed among them, not only with benefit to creased. It was for the interests of justice that the government should be enabled to engage the talents of the most learned men at the bar at a time when those talents were in their prime, and when the corporeal faculties of those who possessed them were still vigorous and unimpaired. The consequence of pursu

the country, but also with benefit to the judges who presided in them. There was also another reason why he thought the salaries of the judges ought to be altered, and that was the great increase of the criminal business of the country. The sessions of the Old Bailey now took up twice as much time as they did some 20 years

try upon such persons as were there convicted before them of any ordinary misdemeanour. He would now say a word or two on the proposition of the rt, hon. gent.—that all fees now received by the officers of the different courts, should he paid into the Exchequer, and thence be transferred to the consolidated fund. Now that proposition, he thought, must depend greatly upon the nature and extent of the fees received. He therefore trusted that the rt. hon. gent. would keep his mind open upon the subject. In some cases, it was clear that an adequate remuneration ought to be provided for the officers who received them, whilst in other cases, where they went to swell the funds of officers who held sinecures, it might be matter of consideration how far they ought to be continued. He thought that in all cases the fees ought to be reduced to such an amount as would give a fair remuneration to the officer who received them for the duties he performed, and that whatever exceeded such amount should be abolished as impeding the due execution of justice. He concluded by stating his general approbation of the scheme proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

ago. The business of a third assize had become | the culprit in drawing him from his usual avoa matter of imperative necessity in the counties cations, and in depriving himself and his family near London; for though that measure had been of those exertions which he might otherwise tried as an experiment for the last three years, have been making to procure his subsistence. the criminal business had been so great at the He therefore thought, that without deviating last Lent Assizes, that the judges had been un- from the effective administration of justice, it able to dispatch the civil business of the home might safely be left to the discretion of the circuit. He saw no reason why the jurisdic-judges of assize, to pass sentence in the courtion at the Old Bailey, which now took cognizance of offences committed in London and Middlesex, should not also take cognizance of similar offences which took place in other parts of the metropolis which lay within the bills of mortality (hear). The rt. hon. gent. had said, that he should raise the salary of the puisne judges to 60001. a-year, in order to give them a fixed and settled situation. He considered that as a point of the very last importance, especially when he recollected-and he could not mention the practice without bestowing on it his severest censure that puisne judges of the Court of King's Bench and also of the Common Pleas, had been elevated to the situations of Chief Justices of those Courts in no less than seven or eight successive instances. Such a practice he for one should ever deprecate; it was keeping judges in the constant expectation of preferment, and unless they could divest themselves of the ordinary feelings of men, was leading them to the hope of obtaining promotion, by conciliating the favour of those who had promotion to bestow. In making these remarks be had no intention of alluding to any particular case; he stated that which every member must admit to be fact, who knew any thing of Mr. John Williams expressed his regret that the feelings of human nature. It was detri- the rt. hon. gent. opposite, in the measure he mental at once to the respectability of the had just detailed to the committee, had not projudges, and to the pure administration of jus- posed any amendment of the evils of the present tice, that judges should become accustomed to system. His learned friend (Dr. Lushington) had look for preferment to the ministers of the proposed several important alterations in our Crown. He did not say that any act should be judicial system, which he should have been most passed, or regulation entered into, to prevent happy to have seen countenanced by the rt. hon. the Crown from exercising its prerogative in gent. opposite. The unequal distribution of promoting a puisne judge of great virtue and business in the three Courts-the late period of exalted talent to the highest situation in his life at which the judges were appointed-these court-such a power should be rarely exercised, and many other points deserved as much attenand instead of being a matter of daily prac- tion as the mode of paying the judges. With tice, it should only be resorted to on extraordi- respect to the salaries proposed to be given to nary occasions (hear, hear). There were one the Chief Justices of the King's Bench and of or two subjects, not altogether unconnected the Common Pleas, it appeared to him to be with the present question, on which he would extremely reasonable, that an ample compensay a few words. He would give the judge li-sation should be made to those two magistrates berty to pass sentence at the Assizes, upon any person convicted before him of misdemeanour, reserving, however, to the Attorney-General the right, if he thought proper to exercise it, of bringing the individual up to London to receive the judgment of the Court. Such an alteration in the law would be beneficial to every party. For what was the consequence of the present system? On the one side the time of the Court of King's Bench was occupied-and this was notoriously the case in all offences against the revenue-in hearing numerous affidavits in mitigation of punishment, and very often very long speeches in support of the facts sworn to in such affidavits; and on the other side, parties were frequently brought to town, and kept there at a great expense, to receive sentence, or remained imprisoned in the country for six months, in the interval between verdict and sentence, which was in itself no inconsiderable punishment. The existing system was, therefore, detrimental to the judges in overloading them with business, and in wasting their time in many instances upon trifling offences, and to

for the loss of the emoluments they now received from what was thought an objectionable quarter. That compensation should be measured by the loss which they absolutely sustained by the deprivation of the fees to which they had hitherto been entitled. The addition which it was proposed to make to the salary of the Master of the Rolls, and of the Vice-Chancellor-and for the last no reason whatever had been given-was so trifling that he would pass it over without further notice. The addition it was proposed to make to the salaries of the puisne judges, he considered the most important part of the scheme then before the committee. He had listened with the greatest attention to the rt. hon. gent. in the expectation of hearing him mention some instance of an individual refusing the situation of a judge on ac. count of the inadequacy of the remuneration; but he had not heard him mention any such instance (hear), He had likewise listened in vain for any mention of the time of life at which the judges were either to commence or resign their functions. The opinion that a man was not