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to quote him as a very high authority for the The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was sure course which he (Lord Lyndhurst) pointed that his noble and learned Friend could not out; and allow him to say, that he considered have distinctly heard what fell from his noble that course more in accordance with the spirit Friend (Earl Grey) near him, from the conof the constitution. If that practice now pre-struction he had put upon his observations as vailed which once existed, and which was to the course he proposed with respect to the certainly founded upon the then admitted pre- first clause. His noble Friend proposed as a rogative of the Crown-of sending writs to course which was likely to be more convenient places which had grown into importance, to their Lordships, that the words "fifty-six" authorising them to return members, and this should be omited from the first clause, prerogative remained down to the time of because, as his noble Friend had observed, it King Charles II., who, as was well known, might be not agreeable to many of their Lordhad sent a writ to the town of Newark-if, he ships to be tied down in the first instance to repeated, that prerogative still existed in the the disfranchisement of so many boroughs, Crown, there could be no difficulty in adjust- but his noble Friend had never meant or said ing the principle of enfranchisement. But that it was not his intention to propose the that prerogative no longer existed, and allow disfranchisement of that number of boroughs. him to say, that at no time was the power of On the contrary, he had most distinctly and disfrauchisement recognised by law as belong- emphatically added, that it was his intention ing to the monarch. He knew it had been held to propose the disfranchisement of those that the Crown had the power of withholding boroughs-that was, that each of them should writs from places which had gone to decay, seriatim be proposed to be inserted in schedule but this power had been most formally dis- A. He was anxious to set his noble and avowed, first by a committee of the House of learned Friend right on this point, lest, by Commons, afterwards by the decision of the possibility, it could be supposed that his noble judges of the land, and eventually by Parlia- Friend near him, or he (Lord Brougham), or ment itself. In the reign of James 1, four auy of his nobie colleagues, could by any poshoroughs complained to the House that pre-sibility think of going back one atom from cipes had not been sent to them to return what they considered the essential principles members as usual in the case of a new election. of the bill. (Cheers from the ministerial side.) The House appointed a committee to inquire into the matter, and the committee decided that the precipe could not legally be refused to them. The matter was afterwards referred to the Chief Justices of the Courts, and the decision of the commit ee was confirmed, and it was, as he had said, subsequently confirmed by Parliament itself, and the precipes were issued. The towns of Winchester and Pomfret were iustances of the same kiud, in the same reign. He (Lord Lyndhurst) must contend, then, that the power of the Crown not extending now to the issuing or withholding of writs from places which sent members to Parliament being admitted, and that the plans of all the great reformers, from the time of Lord Chatham to the present day, having been, as he had shown, on the principle of eufranchisement as au end, and disfranchisement as a means, he was acting in accordance with the spirit of the constitution, and in conformity with even the practice of modern reformers, in proposing that their Lordships should first consider the question of how far they were disposed to carry the enfranchising principle before they took into consideration the question of disfranchisement. Having stated the arguments which occurred to him on this point, he could assure their Lordships that in taking this course he did not mean to prejudice the question of disfranchisement, for their Lordships could afterwards measure the extent of disfranchisement by the extent to which they should feel disposed to carry the principle of enfranchisement. He would now therefore move that the first and second clauses of the bill be postponed. The question having been put from the chair,—

The course which his noble Friend proposed was for the sake of the convenience of their Lordships, for he admitted that there would be an inconvenience attending the clause if it were proposed at once that fifty-six boroughs should be disfranchised. Therefore it was that his noble Friend proposed to omit those words from the clause, but with the certain intention of proposing each one of the fifty-six boroughs to be inserted in it as they went on. He was fully disposed to give his noble and learned Friend credit for the disclaimer he had made of want of candour, or of the existence of any factious party spirit in the proposition he now made; but if he were to judge of him by the party with whom he was acting, and to whose party his noble and learned Friend had most marvellously, as it appeared to him, assigned the absence of all factious or party motives-if he were to weigh all that they had lately done with respect to this bill, and to the Government by which it was introduced, he should not be disposed to give him that credit for candour and fairness which he then most unfeignedly did. He was unwilling to go back to all the proceedings of that party; but without going farther back than that most unfactious and most candid course which that party took on the occasion of the system of education lately adopted in Ireland, he must say, that when he recollected the various cases and degrees of party who were united on that question, for the purpose of showing, no doubt, their very good will to Government-when he recollected the strange union which was then made to assert a principle different from that on which Government acted, they might be

right-they might have considered that they | of the Houses themselves, he should be at no were wrong. But when he recollected the loss to find abundant subjects for remark, and union formed on that occasion, of men who that, too, not in the way of any cordial approcould not agree on any one point, but that in bation. For instance, he had heard in one the plan they were pursuing, they were op- House of Parliament of a proposition madeposed to the Government-when he recollect- aye, and carried too-aud carried by a large ed these circumstances, he must own that if majority, a majority of which, as expressing he were to measure his noble and learned the sense of the then representatives of the Friend's candour by that of those with whom people, he was bound to speak with all due he acted, he should not be disposed to give respect; but he had heard of a proposition him as much credit for that quality as he moved by that house, and carried by that mashould willingly do if he were to consider him jority, which in gross absurdity was not exin his individual character and distinct from ceeded by any of the wildest or most extraparty association. (Hear, hear.) Consider- vagant which he had ever heard made ing then this notion-considering by whom it out of doors-a proposition not only against was proposed, and by whom it was likely to the abundant evidence of the experience of be supported, he could look upon it in no that day, but against common arithmetic. other light, thau as a negative of the most That proposition was, that a one-pound note important part of the bill. (Cheers from the and a shilling were equivalent to, in real ministerial side, and cries of " No, no," from value, a guinea in gold, (cheers from the the opposition.) If his noble and learned ministerial side),—a proposition which seemed Friend, instead of wrapping himself in gene- to have been made almost for no other purpose ralities, would only say that there was any but that of making the assertion of the conimportant part of the bill with which he would trary a misdemeanour, and made at the very agree-if he would even now say that he did moment that persons who knew well the not object to the principle of schedules A and relative value of the pound note and the B, but that he would rather that schedules guinea in gold, were giving 28s. of paper C and D should be taken first-then he could currency for that guinea. (Hear, hear, from understand the ground of his objection, and the ministerial side.) He mentioned this might be disposed to accede to it, (though he only to show the danger of picking out pas. should still think that the taking the clauses sages from the proceedings of public bodies in their order in the bill would be the more as proofs of general principles or general desirable course). If even his uoble and learn- feeling. His noble and learned Friend had ed Friend would point out that there was some-cited several plans of reform, to show that thing for which they ought to wait before they the object of all was enfranchisement, and proceeded to the discussion of that clause, some that disfranchisement was meaus by which it information which they had not yet obtained, was to be achieved; but he had passed over but which might be forthcoming at a later pe- one great measure of reform, in which there riod of the discussion, he should not think his was all disfranchisement and no enfranchisemotion unreasonable; but when his noble and ment-he meant the union of Great Britain learned Friend left them in the dark as to all and Ireland. In that great measure 200 out that, and as to his own intentions and those of 300 members were lopped off at once, withof the party with which he acted, with respect out any corresponding eufranchisement. Was to those clauses, at a future period, he must there nothing in that precedent which should think that the proposition was made only to induce his noble and learned Friend to pass it get rid of the clause altogether, and therefore over without notice? But his noble and it should have his most decided opposition. learned Friend had availed himself of the opi(Hear, hear.) His noble and learned Friend uions expressed by individuals, and, amongst had, in order to induce their Lordships to agree others, had quoted one which he (the Lord with him in this motion, taken rather a Chancellor) had given,-"That by ail means strange course, if his object were only the there should be no disfranchisement." Did mere postponement and not total defeat of the his noble and learned Friend think that the clause. He had alluded to opinions which were change which twenty-two eventful years had expressed elsewhere, and his noble and learned brought about was as nothing? He (the Lord Friend had read and commented upon a speech Chancellor) could remember that in the period delivered at a public meeting somewhere in the of twenty-two weeks a change had been north. He did not think it worth while to fol- wrought so great as was considered sufficient low his noble and learned friend into any ex- to induce many of their Lordships to alter au amination of that speech, for he did not think opinion on a great question of internal policy it fair to pick out words from a speech at a which they had within that time negatived by public meeting out of doors, indeed he should a large majority; and not only had this change think it hardly fair to do so to a speech deli-taken place, but it was proposed by the very vered in any place, he would not except even parties who had been most active in opposing the two highest and most important scenes of the same question; yet the short space of public discussion, the two Houses of Parlia- two-and-twenty weeks had teemed with events ment. If he were disposed to make selectious sufficient to induce uoble Lords to think that for the sake of comment on the speeches deli-they were not only justified but bound to vote vered in either of those Houses, or in the acts against their former decision. (Hear, bear).

Did he say this by way of disparagement to those who had taken that course, or in whose opinions that change had been effected? By no means. Did he mean it as any objection to the votes which his noble and learned Friend had given on that occasion? Not at all he was rather disposed to quote his noble and learned Friend as a high authority for such a change, as his noble and learned Friend had been pleased to quote him. His noble and learned Friend had said, that statesmen ought to act according to the circumstances of the times; but to follow up his remark, and to show that there was any inconsistency in the course which he (the Lord Chancellor) bad adopted, he should prove that nothing bad occurred in the course of twenty-two eventful years which could justify that change. He contended that the change which had taken place in the times fully justified the departure, as far as it was in this bill, from the principle of previous measures of reform. The principle of the bill recognised the taking the fran-reform most dreaded, for the great hatred was chise from inconsiderable places,-that was the foundation; then came the addition of members of towns not represented before, and then the addition to the representation of counties; but the leading principle on which the whole was founded was the taking away the representation from places which, in the lapse of time, had become obscure and decayed, and which had also from the same causes become corrupt or fallen into the hands of individuals. His noble and learned friend had said that it could be of no importance whether the disfranchisement should be last, for that when they knew what they had to enfranchise, they should then know the extent of disfranchisement. This led him (the Lord Chancellor) to repeat what he had said, that the thing sought by the motion was the destruction of the clause altogether, and he was the more confirmed in this opinion when he saw who were those by whom this motion was likely to be supported. He had no doubt that his noble and learned Friend expected that all those who objected to the fundamental principle of the bill would join with him,not merely those who would give a little here and take a little there, but who would rather not be called upon to give anything whatever. He did not mean to say that his noble, and learned Friend had so framed and intended his motion, but it required not the great acuteness and quick perception of his noble and learned Friend to see that such a motion would have the effect of drawing together all those who felt any hostility to the measure. He (the Lord Chancellor) therefore could not consent to a motion which would put the leading, the most important part of the bill in risk and danger. But let him ask, from whom did this motion come?-from one who was disposed to admit the principle of the measure, or any important part of it, and to see how the rest might be remodelled in the committee? No; his noble and learned Friend had frankly and candidly declared that he was wholly

opposed to the bill, as one which would destroy the balance of the constitution; that, there fore, he could enter into no consideration of the detail, for he would oppose the whole. He would, he admitted now, be disposed to see how far the principle of enfranchisement would go; and were they, he (the Lord Chan cellor) would ask, were those who were favourable to the principles as well as to the detail of the bill, to wait and hazard the safety of that principle until they saw to what degree of enfranchisement the noble and learned Lord and his friends would go, that they might then ascertain how far they should be permitted to carry the principle of disfranchisement? For his part he confessed that in the prospect which bis noble and learned Friend held out, his hopes of gaining anything to the bill by his acceding to his motion were very weak indeed. (Hear.) The attack, for attack it was, was made on that part of the bill which he most valued, and which those opposed to all directed against schedule A; and if that should be put in jeopardy, or defeated, he could easily guess how it would fare with schedule B and the rest. (Hear, hear.) But if, as his noble and learned Friend intimated, the schedule A could be considered after the other parts of the bill, and if there was to be no objection to it, why might it not as well be agreed to in the first instance? The other plaus of reform to which his noble and learned Friend had alluded had been brought in, it should be remembered for the first time, and proposed in unreforming Houses of Parliament; but the plan now before the House was brought into a House of Parliament disposed to admit the principle of reform, and that this bill had twice received the sanction by a large majority of one House of Parliament. Under these circumstances, and feeling that his noble and learned Friend had made no case for the necessity or expediency of the course he had proposed, he should feel it his duty to give his direct and decided opposition. (Hear, hear.)

The Earl of HARROWBY rose with one or two other lords, but the cry for the noble Earl' being very general, the other noble lords gave way. The noble Earl began by observing, that he should not have felt disposed to rise thus early in the discussion if the noble and learned Lord who last addressed the House, and whose authority was always of great weight, had not omitted anything like argu ment in support of his opposition to the motion of his noble and learned Friend. He should give his support to his noble and learned Friend's motion for postponing the consideration of schedule A; but in doing so, let it not for a moment be understood that he was one of those to whom the noble and learned Lord opposite had referred, who meant by this postponement to object to the disfranchising clause even to its full extent-if, after considering the enfranchising clauses, their Lordships should be of opinion that it should stand in the bill. He would repeat here what

he said on a former occasion, that not aban-favour, to see which were the towns whose doning his opinion of the utility of preserving wealth and rank entitled them to representamany of those boroughs which it was now tion, and then to go to the counties, and which proposed to disfranchise, still he did not think were those which required additional members, that considering the feelings of the public on and next to consider the means of giving to the subject, which it was absolutely necessary all a respectable constituency, and then they should not be overlooked, it was expedient might with great propriety consider how far that those feelings should he consulted, and they might carry the principle of disfranchisethat the principle of disfranchisement should ment. The noble Earl, in conclusion, exbe carried to the same extent, for he admitted pressed his great satisfaction, and congratu that if they were to have enfranchisement to a lated the House on the fact, that the discusgreat extent, they must have disfranchisement sions on this important subject had hitherto in a corresponding proportion. He was glad been free from heat and passion; that there to hear in the outset of the noble Earl's ob- had been no mixing up of private interests, servations, that the words " fifty-six" were to but that the whole subject had been fairly conbe omitted from the clause-for the re-sidered as one which affected the general intaining of which he saw no earthly rea- terests of the country. son but that they were placed there; but the noble Earl, though he proposed to omit the words "fifty-six," meant to move that each of the boroughs composing that fifty-six should be proposed seriatim. Now he would ask whether this was not the same in effect? Would not the more safe course be to adopt that proposed by his noble and learned Friend; for if they went ou from borough to borough in the first clause, they would not know where to stop. They would have in that case nothing to guide them with certainty as to whether they should disfranchise fifty-six, or forty-six, or sixty; but if they began with enfranchisement, then they would have something to guide them. He was ready to enter upou the question of disfranchisement if, having considered of the other parts of the bill, he should think it necessary; but first he should like to see his way, and to ascertain how far that principle might be necessary. It was not the difference of one or two towns; it was not the difference of whether this place was enfrauchised before that was disfranchised. That might not be the most important consideration, but it was an important consideration to see generally how far the principle of enfranchisement was necessary, and then it could be more easily ascertained how far they ought to cvrry the principle of disfranchisement. The objection of the noble and learned Lord opposite that this motion would receive the sanction of all who were hostile to the principle of the bill could not apply to him (the Earl of Harrowby), who, like the noble and learned Lord himself, had done his best to persuade the House to assent to the second reading, thereby adopting its principle, and he was sure it was as little applicable to many other uoble Lords who would support the motion of his noble and learned Friend, and not from a wish to defeat the bill, but because they considered the course pointed out as the most reasonable and the most convenient. He repeated that he was disposed to go any reasonable lengths which would give a chance of tranquillizing the country and placing a good Government on a firm basis; but in going this length, he thought that the more safe, reasonable, and prudent course, would be to consider first that part of the bill which was matter of grace and

Lord BEXLEY next addressed the House, but in a tone so low, as to be very indistinctly heard below the bar. We understood the noble Lord, in reference to what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) on the subject of the resolution of the House of Commons declaring the one-pound note and the shilling to be equivalent to a guinea, to contend that the course taken by the House on that occasion was justifiable, and in accordance with the verdict of a jury of twelve men ou their oaths on the same subject. With respect to the motion before the House, he had two reasons for supporting it. It should be recollected that one of the great grievances complained of was the want of enfranchisement, and that the enfranchisement of the large towns was sought for. And when that was done, the next point to be considered would be how it could be done with the least possible infringement of private rights. The second reason which induced him to support the amendment of his noble and learned Friend was, a desire that their Lordships should not carry the remedy beyond the extent of the grievance complained of. And thus their Lordships would arrive at the question, whether any disfranchisement at all was necessary (loud cries of "Hear," intermingled with laughter from the ministerial benches); for it was his opinion, that by a proper adjustment and classification of boroughs, disfrauchisement might be avoided altogether. (Cheers from the opposition.) Wishing that some meaus might be discovered whereby an adjustment of the eufranchisement and the classification of boroughs, satisfactory to all parties, might be effected, he should certainly give his support to the amendment moved by his noble and learned Friend.

The Earl of RADNOR looked upon the question which had been raised by the noble and fearned Lord opposite as a question of very serious importance. The noble Earl, who had spoken last but one, and wished to prove that it was a question of no consequence whether the words "fifty-six ' were left in the clause, or whether the names of the boroughs to be inserted in schedule A were voted separately, as his noble friend near him (Earl Grey) had proposed. Now it appeared

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upon the minds of those who had travelled along it from the opulent and populous town of Liverpool, which was partially represented, to the still more opulent and populous town of Manchester, which was totally unrepresented. (Cheers.) The feeling as to the necessity of disfrauchising such wretched and contemptible places as Newton was gaining strength daily amid the hardy and intelligent people of the north; and if they had talked lately more of the 107. qualification clause than they had of the disfranchisement clause, it was, he repeated, because they supposed it was agreed on all hands that an extensive disfranchisement should take place. (Hear, bear.) If their Lordships were disposed to make this bill available to any good purpose, they must put a negative on the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord.

to him to be a matter of great consequence was to be found. If you lay down in the first which course was adopted, and he would instance that 56 boroughs are to be disfranshortly tell their Lordships why. Those per-chised, you must then look out for the different sons who advised the postponement of this boroughs which are to form part of those 56; clause were the enemies to disfranchisement but if you leave out the words fifty-six, you altogether. (A faint cry of "No.") He said, are at liberty to look out for nomination yes." The noble and learned Lord who pro- boroughs, and if you find 56 boroughs or even posed the amendment, had frankly avowed more deserving disfranchisement, you can put his enmity to the bill, and though he had them at once into schedule A. The difference stated that he should act in the committee between two propositions was thus nothing with the utmost fairness by the bill, he (the more than the mere difference between cause Earl of Radnor) could not help feeling that and effect. (Hear.) With respect to the nethe noble and learned Lord's wish to reject cessity of disfranchising these nomination the bill in toto, might bias his judgment in boroughs, he had recently had an opportunity considering its clauses. The noble Earl who of informing himself of the opinions which had spoken second on this question, had the people of England had entertained upon avowed himself a friend to the system of no- that subject. He had recently been in Lanmination boroughs. He had even told their cashire, and in travelling along the rail-road Lordships that evening, that he did not give up between Liverpool and Manchester, he had one iota of the opinions which he had for- passed close by the decayed and insignificant merly entertained respecting their utility and borough of Newton. He had been told that it advantage; and the noble Baron who had was impossible to form a conception of the just sat down had declared it to be his opinion effect which the existence of that borough of that if this amendment were carried, disfran-Newton so close to the rail-road had produced chisement might be done away with altoge gether. The postponement, then, of this clause meant nothing else than the throwing out the clause for the disfranchisement of what some writers had not hesitated to call the shameful parts of the constitution. (Hear, hear.) He looked upon that clause as the most important clause in the bill. Some noble Lords were of a different opinion, and maintained that the 102. qualification clause was that which the people were most desirous of seeing part and parcel of the bill. He believed quite the reverse. He admitted that there had been more talk lately about the 107. clause than about the disfranchisement clause; but the reason was obvious,it was generally supposed that the nomination boroughs would be given up without a word by all parties. (Hear.) What was it, he would ask, which more than anything The Duke of WELLINGTON.-The noble else had reconciled the country to this Reform Earl who had spoken last, and the noble and Bill? The extent to which it carried the dis- learned Lord who preceded him, had founded franchisement of the nomination boroughs. their speeches against the proposition of his When the people first received the bill with noble and learned Friend entirely on the notion that enthusiasm of which no man now ven- that it was made by an avowed enemy of the tured to dispute the existence, it was not be-bill, and that it was intended for nothing else cause they had considered the mode of enfranchisement which it proposed, but because they discovered that it made a great disfranchisement. He therefore concluded that the disfranchisement clause was the main clause of the bill, and one which most interested the popular will of the country. Considering the quarter from which the proposition for postponement came, he could not look upon it as anything else than a mode of getting rid, by a side wind, of disfranchisement altogether. The noble Earl said that there essential difference between the proposition of his noble and learned Friend, and the amendment upon it proposed by the noble and learned Lord opposite. He would call the attention of their Lordships to the point in which the difference between them

was no

but party purposes. He would not follow either of those noble Lords into au inquiry into the conduct of those distinguished personages with whom he had had the honour of acting on the memorable occasion to which they had both alluded, nor into an inquiry into their conduct during the last and the present session. Neither would he stop to compare it with the conduct pursued by the noble and learned Lord in another place, nor with the conduct pursued by other noble Lords in respect to all party measures. But this he would say, that if ever there were men who had found it necessary to differ from the policy of his Majesty's Government, and who had cautiously abstained from acting upon. party motives,—and he had himself received credit from the noble and learned Lord for

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