believed that the amendments which would be proposed would comprise the whole of schedule A. Under these circumstances, he trusted that noble Lords opposite would not persist in their objection to the amendment. length of schedule A with respect to disfranchisement, and he knew that many noble Lords on his side of the House agreed with him upon that point. But he would not disfranchise except upon grounds which would satisfy his conscience and the judgment of the Earl GREY disclaimed any intention to atcountry. He should like to know how their tribute factious motives to any person, and he Lordships could tell how many boroughs it trusted that his conduct during the whole of was proper to disfranchise, until they knew the discussions upon this important question how many were to be enfranchised. It was would ensure him credit with the House in possible that an addition might be made to the making that disclaimer. He spoke not of the number of boroughs in schedule A, by inserting intention of the amendment which had been in it some of those at present contained in proposed, but of its tendency and effect; and schedule B, or by other meaus. He could he was bound to say that nothing could have assure the House, that now there existed no been devised better calculated to defeat the desire to defeat the principle of the bill. Now bill than that amendment. (Hear, hear.) He that the measure was in committee, noble further felt it his duty to state at once to the Lords on his side of the House were as House, that he should consider the success of anxious as noble Lords opposite could be, that the amendment fatal to the bill. (Cheers.) disfranchisement should be carried far enough He was pledged to the principles and efficiency to satisfy the reasonable desires of the people. of the bill, not only by the assurances which He entreated Ministers to try whether there he had given to the House, and the public, did not exist on his side of the House a cordial but by his deep conscientious and unchanged disposition to meet them cordially. If Minis-opinion of the necessity of the measure. ters would not stand out upon points which, principles to which he was pledged were those after all, would not have any practical effect of disfranchisement, enfranchisement, and upon the good or evil of the bill, they would the extension of the qualification. have it in their power to pass a measure which respect to the two first, he was ready to listen would give general satisfaction to the country. to any suggestions which might be made with Under these circumstances he must not be the view of preventing injustice in details, but told that the mere proposition to postpone the he would not consent to any reduction of the reading of the first clause, until after the third extent of either disfranchisement or enfran- had been disposed of, was an attempt to defeat chisement. To the third principle he knew the principle of the bill. (Hear.) What the expectations of the people were most principle would it defeat? Would it get rid anxiously directed, he meant the qualificaof disfranchisement? No; nor was it so tion. After much consideration and much intended. If a reform of the representation pains to obtain the best advice, he had satiswas to be made upon fair principles, enfran-fied himself-and he believed that when the chisement ought to precede disfranchisemeut. For himself, if the question before the House was simply whether the whole of schedule A should be adopted, he would vote for it; and, further, he would state, that he would never consent to any arrangement which would reduce the amount of disfranchisement below that contained in the schedule. (Hear.) The Earl of HAREWOOD said, that in the first place he would guard himself from the suspicion of acting upon the present occasion from any indirect motives. The bill having passed the second reading, and entered the committee, ought to be dealt with fairly. If the proposition of his noble and learned Friend contained anything of a sinister character, he would not support it. At the same time he could not but lament that his uoble and learned Friend had not given the House a little more time to consider what would be the effect of his amendments. He believed that if the noble Lords opposite knew the nature of the amendments which would he proposed if the postponement should be agreed to, much of their objection to the proposition would be removed. An idea seemed to be entertained that the object of the amendment was to defeat schedule A; but he believed that no such intention was entertained, and if it were he would not support the amendment. He The With question came to be examined he should be found to be in the right-that in taking the 107. qualification, he had not taken too low a scale; and that if he were to raise it, he should disfranchise a great number of his Majesty's subjects who had so fair a claim and tile to vote for representatives as any persons in the country. (Cheers.) To the principle of the 107. qualification he felt himself decidedly and irrevocably pledged, and he would admit of no alteration respecting it, except such as could be clearly shown to he a security against abuse. He would resist with the most fixed determination any proposition which under the pretence of regulation, would have the effect of raising the qualification. (Cheers.) He had considered it necessary to say thus much, in order to set himself clear with the House and the country. He would now address himself to the question before the House. Like the noble Duke opposite, he was unwilling to enter into a revision and comparison of the conduct of the existing and the late opposition. He thought the noble Duke would at least give him credit for never having engaged in factious opposition to his Government-indeed, he did not remember having opposed it at all. On some occasion he had most cordially, and he thought not ineffectually, supported the noble Duke. However, he did not wish to enter into any comparison relative to themselves if they supposed that the present circumstances of that nature; and still less moment was the first in which a stir had been did he desire to impute any party motives to made on account of nomination boroughs. the noble and learned individual who had They had been denounced during the last half moved the amendment upon this occasion. If century by some of the greatest men whom there was one circumstance more than another the country had produced,-by men who were which could secure the House against the pos- least disposed to advance what in an invidious sibility of any such motive having had any in-sense was called the democratical spirit. They fluence whatever in the production of the spoke of nomination boroughs as sores and amendment, it was to be found in the cha- ulcers eating into the vitals of the constituracter and situation of the noble and learned tion, which it was necessary to excise, in order Lord; because it was not to be believed that a to preveut its total corruption. A noble Baron person in his situation-a judge of the land-expressed a hope that Ministers would confide would put himself forward as the instrument. in the disposition of noble Lords on the other (Hear.) The amendment was by some per-side of the House to grant a proper measure sons spoken of as being of little consequence, of reform to the people. If he had observed and relating only to a question of form. He any such disposition, no one would have been did not consider it in that light. It appeared to him to be a question of the first cousequence. If it did not entirely subvert the principle of the bill, it materially affected it, and therefore it was quite impossible_that he could accede to it. He could not understand upon what ground it was contended that it was necessary to enfranchise before disfrauchising. The noble Duke said that no answer had been given to the noble and learned Lord's proposition,—that according to the analogy of the law, the practice of former times, and the principles of the constitution, that was the course which ought to be pursued. He was at a loss to understand how the noble and learned Lord made out that proposition. A noble Baron said that it was impossible to ascertain what degree of disfranchisement was necessary until it was known how far enfranchisement had been carried. He might reverse the proposition, and say that the amount of enfrauchisement could not be ascertained till the extent of disfranchisement was known. (Hear, hear.) A noble Duke, whose candour was at least entitled to respect, had declared himself opposed to all enfranchisement. Another noble Lord had expressed his hope that if the amendment should be earried, disfranchisement might be altogether avoided, by some such means, probably, as a noble Duke had proposed in a plan of reform which he had propounded to the House. If the rotten boroughs were not to be disfranchised ou account of the sacredness of private property, upon what ground did the noble Baron (Wharncliffe) support disfrauchisement? In his opinion Ministers had pursued the most natural course which could be adopted. The noble and learned Lord said that if the House should proceed immediately with the task of disfranchising, they would justify all the cry which had been raised against nomination boroughs. To be sure they would. He should like to know upon what principle the noble and learned Lord would propose to disfranchise them. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord would propose to place the names of all places in England in a box, and ballot for them, to see which should be disfranchised; and in that case he might select places of the largest population. Noble Lords deceived more ready than himself to have met it in a proper spirit, always recollecting that to the principles of the bill he was irrevocably fixed; but what reason had he to expect that any thing approaching to such an arrangement would be made? What evidence was there that night of the disposition to which the noble Lord had alluded? The noble and learned Lord who moved the amendment repeated what he said on the second reading-that the bill was incompatible with the safety of the Government, and destructive of the constitution. Then, he asked, what hope was there that the noble and learned Lord would give his consent to the bill? A noble Baron said, that he would endeavour to amend the bill, reserving to himself the right of voting against it on the report. From what had fallen from the noble and gallant Duke, he understood that he would act much in the same way. Many other noble Lords who had voted for the second reading, at the same time declaring that there was much in the bill which they objected to, now intended to support the amendment. Under these circumstances, could he trust the measure in their hands with the hope that it would be brought to such a consummation as would satisfy either his own conscience or the expectations of the public? With opinions so divergent, or rather so opposite, all arrangement was impossible. A noble Lord said that if any alterations should be proposed which would defeat the principles of the bill,Ministers might reckon upon many allies coming over to them from the opposite ranks. That, however, was a hope ou which it was not possible for him to rely consistently with his duty to his King, his country, and himself. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that there would be a difficulty amounting to impossibility, under the present motion, to carry the bill to that successful issue which was necessary for the satisfaction of the public; and if it should miscarry, it would be then absolutely necessary that he should consider the course he should be constrained to adopt. (Loud cheers.) He certainly on this, as upon all other occasions, disclaimed any intention of offering any dis respect to the House; but he must concur in what had been said by a noble Friend, that this House, like every house, and more especially this House, must not disregard chisement, disfranchisement, and qualificapublic opinion. (Hear.) Noble Lords were tion, and those must not be meddled with; wrong if they thought that the anxiety of the for if they were touched, it would be fatal to public had in any degree relaxed upon this the bill. Just as if, after a long law suit, any question (hear, hear); the public were as one of their Lordships quarrelled with the anxious as ever. He did expect that this House attorney's bill, and the attorney should say would not oppose an insurmountable barrier when his bill was taxed, "You may meddle to the accomplishment of a measure which with the shillings, but do not touch the was absolutely necessary to afford satisfaction pounds." If he (Lord Carnarvon) did not to the country. But no such thing appeared; sincerely believe that the course proposed but he must say, from the symptoms he had would get rid of the blemishes of the bill, he observed in the debate of this night, there would not adopt the dishonest and unmanly seemed to be an intention to put difficulties course of voting for the motion of the noble in the way of a successful passing of the bill, and learned Lord. A noble Friend had said which, he was afraid, it was not in his power that the difference between enfranchisement to surmount. (Cheers.) He had stated to and disfranchisement was like that between their Lordships his objections to the motion of cause and effect; and who ever heard of an the noble and learned Lord, and having done effect before the cause? His noble Friend spoke so, he should say no more than that he should of the great and maguificent object that would give to that motion his most determined oppo- be destroyed if this bill did not pass; and sition. (Cheers.) this great and magnificent object was to The Earl of CARNARVON said, that anxious reconcile the people to their old institu as he was that the first night of considering tions. He (Lord Carnarvon) had never heard this bill in committee should pass away with- that this plan of reform, great and splendid out any exhibition of feeling, yet it was as it might be, was a revival of old instituimpossible to hear, unmoved, such a speech as tions. (Hear.) Although he regretted the had fallen from the noble Earl, which was situation in which they stood, he thought they sufficiently intelligible, and which amouuted should now look the measure fairly in the to nothing less than a menace. (Cheers.) face. He would get rid of it by no trick; and The noble Earl, as well as the noble and he must say it was more like a trick of the learned Lord (Brougham) who replied to the noble Earl and his colleagues, who might noble and learned mover of the amendment, think thereby to slip out of the measure, and had commenced by deprecating anything like get rid of the effects of their own-obstinacy, personal allusions, and had said that nothing he might call it, but their own-conduct, and should lead him into such allusions, but that not theirs (the opposition). (Hear.) If the he should pursue a direct line to the question noble Earl allowed the propositions of the before the House; and the first step which noble and learned Lord to be opened, the the noble Earl took in this direct line led him country would find that those propositions to all the lengths of Irish education. When would place the measure on a sure and firm he (Lord Carnarvon) opposed the secoud read- foundation. The plan they (the opposition) ing of the bill, he said that if their Lordships proposed was a real reform; their (the Minisdetermined it should be sent to a committee, ters') plan would please only corresponding he would go into it fairly and with no wish to societies and political unions. If their (the barass the measure, but with a wish to render opposition) plan was adopted, there would be it as safe as it could be made to the Govern- a reform without a revolution. (Hear.) A ment and palatable to the country. That was noble Lord (Holland) had asked, was there the pledge he gave, and he was ready to ever a revolution in a committee? Was there redeem it. If the noble Earl would adopt the no revolution, he would ask, in the time of course of going into the question of enfran-Charles I.? Was there no revolution in France chisement first, and that of disfranchisement in the reign of Louis XVI.? Although he after, he might have the best opportunity of (Lord Carnarvon) had a dislike to the bill, he removing many of the difficulties in the bill would go into the committee with a sincere and of carrying it through. Their Lordships wish to make it such as the country ought to had been told that the taking away some be satisfied with. After the course he had inconsiderable boroughs was the great princi- pursued on the second reading, he should not ple of the bill. He should be glad to know oppose the bill from any principle of cavil; the meaning of this. What were those incon- and if, on the third reading, he should think siderable boroughs? The first bill had a it as fair and good a measure as the country different schedule A, and a different schedule had a right to look for, he should support it. B. (Hear.) Yet the House was to assume The noble Earl concluded with deprecating that the exact number of boroughs to be dis-party feeling in the consideration of the bill. franchised was fifty-six. (No, no.) Earl MANVERS said, he bad listened with what you will with the details," said the noble the greatest attention, and with feelings of Lords, "but if you take enfranchisement first, respect, to the observations of the noble Lords and disfranchisement afterwards, the measure who had spoken in favour of the amendment, must be fatal." The House was told that any in the anxious hope that he might find some alterations might be made in the details of the excuse or satisfaction to his couscience for plan; but there were three principles, enfrau-voting in support of the amendment consist plied, and not to those who sat on the oppo sition benches. For himself, he very much regretted that the motion which the noble Earl proposed to make went to deprive him (Lord Ellenborough) of an opportunity which he should otherwise have possessed to-morrow, to explain to the House in detail those amendments, which, in conjunction with noble friends who thought and acted with him, it was his intention to have proposed for their Lordships' consideration. He was unable, at that late hour, to go into those details fully and satisfactorily, and the respect which he felt for the House rendered him unwilling to attempt to do briefly and imperfectly that which he was desirous of laying before their Lordships with a clearness and precision commensurate with the importance of the subject. He should merely say, that having, in conjunction with other Peers, given the most serious consideration to the great principles of the bill,-having well considered the claims possessed by the towns included in schedules C and D,-having likewise considered the reasonableness, under existing circumstances, of carrying into effect the changes which these ently with the vote he had already given. He had, however, listened in vain; and although he deeply regretted that circumstances should have severed him from those with whom he had politically acted, he conscientiously believed that the essence of the bill was in schedule A. (Cheers.) That schedule A ought to stand unimpaired was his honest and sincere opinion (hear), and therefore, though he might give pain to some friends and connex. ions, he could not conscientiously give his vote for a motion which he firmly believed would defeat the object he supported. (Hear.) Lord CLIFFORD began by observing, that this was the first time he had addressed the House. It was not his intention to enter into a discussion of the principle of the bill; he thought it his duty to defer expressing his sentiments on that point until the third reading. He wished merely to observe, with regard to the remark of the noble Baron (Wharncliffe) and other noble Lords on the (opposition) side of the House, that Ministers persisting in their course with respect to the arrangements of the bill, threw the onus upon them (the Ministers); that it was impossible to conduct the affairs of any country like this without, in a parlia-clauses, taken in conjunction with other parts mentary sense, party men. The first duty of a politician was, not to indulge in abstract notions, but to adopt practical measures; and while he believed the noble Earl conducted himself with the utmost liberality, he could not think the noble Earl ought to concede in respect to the arrangements of the bill. It was quite as necessary that the House should support the arrangements as the principle of the bill. The noble Lord was proceeding, but the cry of" Question" became loud. The committee then divided, when the numbers were Contents (for the amendment) 151 116 35 Majority against Ministers of the bill, would create,-having reflected on the proposal to give additional members to the counties,-and having at the same time very strong objections to schedules B and E, the result of the amendments to be proposed would have been to give enfranchisement to an extent such as would have made it necessary (unless an inconvenient increase of members of the House of Commons were resorted to) to disfranchise the boroughs contained in schedule A, which, with Weymouth, would cause a reduction of 113 members. Such was a part of the purport of the amendments referred to, but which he was sorry that the conduct of the noble Earl, in proposing a postponement of the bill, prevented from being brought forward at present. He must again express his unfeigned regret at the course taken by the noble Earl. (Cheers from the opposition, miugled with laughter from the ministerial side of the House.) He had just been reminded by a noble friend near him' that there was one most important feature of Lord LYNDHURST said he should move that the bill to which he had not alluded-he meant the next clause (B) be also postponed. the 101. qualification. To that, as being a The question having been put, uniform qualification, he had at a late period Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that to the stated his strong and decided objections,—obmotion of the noble and learned Lord he couldjections that arose in his mind not because have no objection: neither, as appeared to the qualification was popular, but because it him, could the House object to it, after the was uniform. He had stated his regret that vote to which their Lordships had just agreed. under the operation of this qualification, would He had heard with great regret the intention be excluded from direct representation in Parexpressed by the noble Earl (Grey) to move liament all the poorer classes, and he had the postponement of the further consideration thought it absolutely necessary that during of the measure till Thursday. He could assure the progress of the measure, their Lordships the noble Earl that on that (the opposition) should consider whether it was not requisite, side of the house there existed no wish for de- with a view to the permanence of any measure lay. (Cheers from the opposition.) If that of reform, that they should continue in certain were a charge against any members of their places a more popular right of voting. For a Lordships' house, it must be directed against short period-namely, while existing rights of the noble Earl and his friends: to him it ap-voting were** preserved and respected-thes Earl GREY on his legs, expressing his intention to move that the House do resume, and that the further consideration of the bill be postponed till Thursday. change might not be so much felt; but he of congratulation. He must also congratulate contended, that it could not endure for any the noble Baron on the proof he had given (by considerable period after the exclusion of all stating the various persons by whom certain the humbler and poorer classes. One great propositions were to be made in committee, advantage of the system which it was now and by his prompt attention to a suggestion proposed to overthrow was, that it gave direct from the noble Lord near him)-the proof that representation to all classes of the commu- there existed no concert whatsoever between nity; that while it secured the rights of pro- noble Lords opposite in their operations. perty against the dangers of popular passion | (Cheers and laughter.) He must here recur and excitement, and gave a direct representa to what had been said by a noble Earl oppotion to wealth, it also conferred a like privi- site, who expressed his regret that no commulege on the very lowest orders, without risk nication had been made to that (the ministefrom the evils of democracy. The merit of rial) side of the House as to the course inthe old system was, that under it no interest tended to be taken by the opponents of the could obtain an undue preponderance. He bill in committee, and he must observe, that now threw out for the consideration of the this was the first time he had heard of any House whether it was right to disturb this disposition to make such a coucession on the equilibrium-whether it would be safe pros- part of noble Lords opposite. Personally he pectively to disfranchise all the poorer classes. was not disposed to complain of a want of He might here observe, that it was the inten- communication on the subject; but on tion of a noble friend of his to propose an the part of the House he did complain, amendment, to which he did not expect that that the intentions of the noble Baron, the noble Earl opposite would offer any serious as he had just described them in his speech, objection. He alluded to a motion, the object and the amendments of the noble Lord and his of which would be to prevent persons from friends, were not explained before coming to voting for counties in respect of property lying this vote. (Hear, hear.) For what would many within the limits of boroughs. He regretted noble Lords who voted with the noble Baron the necessity imposed on him of stating in a have said (more particularly the noble Duke manner so brief and imperfect the amend-opposite), if the noble Baron had previously ments which it had been proposed to suggest. One further remark, and he had done. With respect to the 107. qualification, he thought there should be a more clear and certain mode of ascertaining the genuineness, reality, and value of holdings, and it was proposed to bring forward an amendment with that view. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM observed, that with respect to the 101. qualification, he could not quite go along with the noble Baron, because beyond the noble Lord's amendment he (the Duke of Buckingham) wished for an amendment to qualify, extend, and enlarge the franchise in particular districts. explained to them the consequence of their vote, and informed them that he wished to render this democratic measure still more democratic? (Hear, hear.) It was not his intention to enter now upon a discussion of the noble Baron's principles of reform; that must remain for a future opportunity; but he might observe, that the noble Lord's plan was to involve a measure of disfranchisement to the extent of schedule A; yet, if such was the noble Baron's intention, surely he must regret, on more mature consideration, a vote which had thrown an obstacle in the way of the accomplishment of his own purpose by postponing Earl GREY said it was not his intention at the consideration of the clause. (Cheers and so late an hour to trouble their Lordships, by laughter.) The noble Baron proposed to entering into a discussion of the plan of re-abolish entirely schedules B and D. He (Earl form suggested by the noble Baron, at this late period of the discussion. However, he could not avoid congratulating the noble Barou, and the House, on the progress which he had at length made in the principles of reform (hear), and also upon the extent to which he was now content to go in disfranchisement, enfranchisement, and (let it not be forgotten) exteusion of the popular qualification, an extension greater than that contemplated by the destructive and revolutionary bill denounced by the noble Baron and his friends (cheers and laughter); greater and more extensive, inasmuch as the noble Lord had expressed his intention not to touch the 107. qualification, aud to preserve the scot-and-lot right of voting where it at present existed. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The noble Lord objected to the uniformity of the 107. qualification, and proposed to change and correct the democratical | till Thursday, tendency of the bill by bestowing a more extensive elective franchise. All this was matter Grey) might here state that this was a proposition in which it was impossible for him to concur. He again declared his intention to propose, that on the House resuming, the committee on the bill be deferred till Thursday. (Hear.) As to the charge of delay, which the noble Baron had attempted to fix on him (Earl Grey), he felt perfectly satisfied to rest under the accusation, being convinced that there was not a man in the country who would not see that he was justified in the course he had taken under the particular circumstances of this case. ་ After a few words from Lord ELDON, Lord HOLLAND, and the LORD CHANCELLOR, which did not reach the bar, in consequence of the confusion prevailing in the House, The House resumed, and the further consideration of the bill in committee was postponed |