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leugth of schedule A with respect to disfran- believed that the amendments which would be chisement, and he kuew that many noble proposed would comprise the whole of Lords op his side of the House agreed with schedule A. Under these circumstances, he him upon that point. But he would not dis- trusted that poble Lords opposite would not franchise except upon grounds which would persist in their objection to the amendment. satisfy his conscience and the judgment of the Earl Grey disclaimed any intention to at-' country. He should like to know how their tribute factious motives to any person, and he Lordships could tell how many boroughs it trusted that his conduct during the whole of was proper to disfranchise, until they knew the discussions upon this important question how many were to be eufranchised. It was would ensure hin credit with the House in possible that an addition iniglit be made to the making that disclaiiner. He spoke not of the number of boroughs in schedule A, by inserting intention of the amendment which had been in it some of those at preseut contained iu proposed, but of its tendency and effect ; and schedule B, or by other means. He could he was bound to say that nothing could have assure the House, that now there existed no been devised better calculated to defeat the desire to defeat the priuciple of the hill. Now bill than that amendment. (Hear, hear.) He that the measure was in committee, noble further felt it his duty to state at once to the Lords on his side of the House were as House, that he should cousider the success of anxious as noble Lords opposite could be, ihat the amendment fatal to the bill. (Cheers.) disfranchisement should be carried far enough He was pledged to the principles and efficiency to satisfy the reasonable desires of the people. of the bill, not only by the assurances wbich He eutreated Ministers to try whether there he had given to the House, and the public, did not exist on his side of the lkuuse a cordial but by bis deep conscientious and uncbauced disposition to meet them cordially. If Minis- opinion of the necessity of the measure. The ters would not stand out upon points which, principles to which he was pledged were those after all, would not have any practical effect of disfranchiseinent, euirauchisement, and upon the good or evil of the bill, they would the extension of the qualification. With have it in their power to pass a measure which respect to the two first, he was ready to listen would give general satisfaction to the country. tu any suggestions which might be made with Under these circumstances he must not be the view of preventing injustice in details, but told that the mere proposition to postpone the he would not consent to any reduction of the reading of the first clause, until after the third extent of either distranchisement or eufrao.. had been disposed of, was an attempt to defeat chisernent. To the third priociple he knew the principle of the bill. (Hear'.) What the expectations of the rieople were most principle would it defeat? Would it get rid anxiously directed, he meant ihe qualificaof disfranchisement ? No; nor was it so tion. After much cousideration and much intended. If a refurın of the representation pains to obtaiu the best advice, he had satiswas to be made upon fair priuciples, enfran- fied bimself--and he believed that when the chisement ought to precede disfranchisement. question came to be examined he should be For himself, if the question before the House found to be in the right that in taking the Was simply whether the whole of schedule A 107. qualification, he had not taken too low a'' should be adopted, he would vote for it; aud, scale ; and that if he were to raise it, he further, he would stale, that he would never should disfrauchise a great number of his Maconsent to any arrangement which would jesty's subjects who had so fair a claim and reduce the amount of disfranchisenient below tiile to vote for representatives as any persons that contained iu the schedule. (Hear.) in the country. (Cheerz.) To the principle
The Earl of Harewoud said, that in the of the 101. qualification lie feit hisiself de first place he would guard himself from the cidedly and irrevocably pledged, and he would suspicion of acting upon the present occasion admit of no alteration respecting it, except from any indirect motives. The bill having such as could be clearly shown to he a security passed the second reading, and entered the against abuse. He would resist with the most committee, ought to be dealt with fairly. If fixed determination auy proposition which the proposition of his noble and learned under the pretence of regulation, would have Friend contained anything of a sivister cha. the effect of raising the qualification. (Cheers.) racter, he would not support it. At the same He had considered it necessary to say.thus time he could not but lament that his voble much, in order to set himself clear with the and learned Friend had not given the House a House and the country. He would now adJittle more time to consider what would be the dress hiroself to the questiou before the House. effect of his amendments. He believed that Like the noble Duke opposite, he was unwillif the noble Lords opposite knew the nature of ing to enter into a revision and comparison of the amendmeuts which would he proposed if the conduct of the existing and the late oppothe postponement should be agreed to, much sition. He thought the noble Duke would at of their objection to the proposition would be least give him credit for never having engaged removed. An idea seemed to be entertained in factious opposition to his Government-in-. that the object of the amendment was to deed, he did not remember having opposed it, defeat schedule A ; but he believed that no at all. On some occasion he had inost cordia such intention was entertained, and if it were ally, and he thought not ineffectually, suphe would not support the amendment. He ported the noble Duke. However, he did not
wish to enter into any comparison relative to themselves if they supposed that the present circumstances of that nature; and still less moment was the first in which a stir had been did he desire 10 impute any party motives to made on account of nomination boroughs. the noble and learned individual who had They had been denounced during the last half moved the amendment upon this occasion. If century by some of the greatest men whom there was one circumstance more than another the country had produced, -by men who were which could secure the House against the pos- least disposed to advance wbat in an invidious sibility of any such mutive having had any ia sense was called the democratical spirit. They fluence whatever in the production of the spoke of pomination boroughs as sores and amendment, it was to be found in the cha- ulcers eating into the vitals of the constituracier aud situation of the noble and learned tion, which it was necessary to excise, in order Lord; because it was not to be believed that a to preveut its total corruption. A noble Baron person in his situation-a judge of the laud - expressed a hope that Ministers would confide would put hiinself forward as the instrument. in the disposition of noble Lords on the other (Hear. The amendment was by some per. side of the House to grant a proper measure sons spoken of as being of little consequence, of reforın to the people. If he had observed and relating only to a question of form. He any such disposition, no one would have been did not consider it in that light. It appeared more ready than himself to have inet it in a to him to be a question of the first couse- proper spirit, always recollectiug that to the quence. If it did not entirely subvert the principles of the bill he was irrevocably fixed; principle of the bill, it materially affected is, but what reason had he to expect that anyo , and therefore it was quite impossible that he thing approaching to such an arrangement could accede to it. He could not understand would be made ? What evidence was there upon what ground it was contended that it that night of the disposition to which the noble was necessary to enfranchise before disfran- Lord had alluded? The noble and learned Lord chising. The noble Duke said that no answer who moved the amendment repeated what he had been given to the noble and learned, said on the second reading that the bill was Lord's proposition, that according to the incompatible with the safety of the Goveroment, analogy of the law, the practice of former aud destructive of the constirution. Then, he times, and the principles of the constitution, asked, what hope was there that the noble and that was the course which ought to be pur- learned Lord would give his consent to the sued. He was at a loss to understand how the bill? A noble Baron said, that he would ennoble and learned Lord made out that propo-deavour to amend the bill, reserving to himsition. A noble Baron said that it was impos- self the right of voting against it on the report. sible to ascertain what degree of disfranchise- From what had fallen from the noble and ment was necessary until it was known bow gallant Duke, he understood that he would act far enfranchisement had been carried. He much in the saine way. Many other noble might reverse the proposition, and say that Lords who had voted for the second readiog, the amount of enfrauchisement could not be at the same time declaring that there was ascertained till the extent of disfranchisement much in the bill which tbey objected to, now was known. (Hear, hear.) A uble Duke, intended to support the amendincut. Under whose caudour was at least entirled to respect, these circumstances, could he trust the meabad declared himself opposed to all eufran sure in their hands with the hope that it chisement. Another noble Lord had expressed would be brought to such a consummation as his hope that if the amevdment should be would satisfy either his own conscience or the earried, disfranchisement might be altogether expectations of the public? With opinions avoided, by some such means, probably, as a so divergent, or rather so opposite, all arrangenoble Duke had proposed in a plan of reform ment was impossible. A noble Lord said that which he had propounded to the House. If if any alterations should be proposed which the rotteu boroughs were not to be disfran- would defeat the principles of the bill, Ministers chised ou account of the sacredness of private might reckon upon many allies coming over property, upon what ground did the noble to them from the opposite ranks. That, howBaron (Wharncliffe) support disfrauchise- ever, was a hope ou which it was not possible ment? In his opiniou Ministers had pursued for bim to rely consistently with his duty to the most natural course wbich could be adopt. his King, his country, and himself. (Hear, ed. The noble and learned Lord said that if hear.) He was of opinion that there would be the House should proceed immediately with a difficulty amounting to impossibility, under the task of disfranchising, they would justify the present mution, to carry the hill to that all the cry which had been raised against no successful issue which was necessary for the mination boroughs. To be sure they would satisfaction of the public; and if it should He should like to know upon what principle miscarry, it would be theu absolutely necessary the puble and learned Lord would propose to that he should consider the course he should disfrauchise them. Perhaps the nuble and be copstrained to adopt. (Loud cheers.) He learned Lord would propose to place the names ceriainly ou this, as upon all other occasions, of all places in England in a box, and ballot disclained any intention of offering any disfor thein, to see which should be disfranchised; respect to the House ; but he must concur in and in that case he might select places of the what had been said by a voble Friend, that largest population. Noble Lords deceived this House, like every house, and more
especially this House, must not disregard chisement, disfranchisement, and qualificapublic opinion. (Hear.) Nuble Lords were tion, and those must not be meddled with ; wrong if they thought that the auxiety of the for if they were touched, it would be fatal to public had in any degree relaxed upon this the bill. Just as if, after a long law suit, any question (hear, hear); the public were as one of their Lordships quarrelled with the anxious as ever. He did expect that this House attorney's bill, and the attorney should say would not oppose an insurmountable barrier when his bill was laxed, “ You may meddle to the accomplishment of a measure which with the shillings, but do not touch the was absolutely necessary to aff-rd satisfaction pounds.” If he (Lord Carnarvon) did vot to the country. But no such thing appeared; sincerely believe ihat the course proposed but he must say, from the symptoms he had would get rid of the blemishes of the bill, he observed in tlic debate of this night, there would uot adopt the dishonest and unmanly seemed to be an inention to put difficulties course of voting for the motion of the puble in the way of a successful passing of the bill, and learned Lord. A noble Friend bad said which, he was afraid, it was not in his power that the difference hetween enfranchisement to surinount. (Cheers.) He had stated to and disfranchisement was like that between their Lordsbips his objections to the motion of cause and effect; and who ever heard of an the noble and learued Lord, and having doue effect before the cause! His noble Friend spoke 80, he should say no more than that he should of the great and maguificcnt object that would give to that motion his inost determined oppu. be destroyed if this bill did uot pass; and sition. (Cheers.)
this great aod maguificeut object was to The Earl of CARNARVON said, that anxious reconcile the people to their old iustitile as he was that the first night of considering tions. He (Lord Carnarvon) had never heard this bill in committee should pass away with that this plan of reform, great and splendid out any exhibition of feeling, yet it was as it might be, was a revival of old iustituimpossible to hear, unmoved, such a speech as tions. (Hear.) Although he regretted the had fallen from the noble Earl, which was situation in which they stood, he thought they sufficiently intelligible, and which amouuted should now look the measure fairly in the to nothing less than a menace. (Cheers.) face. He would get rid of it by vo trick; and The puble Earl, as well as the noble and he must sav it was more like a trick of the learned Lord (Brougham) who replied to the noble Earl and bis colleagues, who might noble and learned mover of the amendment, think thereby to slip out of the measure, aud had commenced by deprecatiog anything like get rid of the effects of their own obstinacy, personal allusions, and had said that nothing he might call it, but their own-conduct, and should lead him into such allusions, but that not theirs (the opposition). (Hear.) If the he should pursue a direct liue to the question noble Earl allowed the propositious of the before the House; and the first step which noble and learned Lord to be opened, the the noble Earl took in this direct live led himn country would find that those propositions to all the lengths of Irish education. When would place the measure on a sure and firm he (Lord Carnarvon) opposed the secoud read. I foundation. The plan they (the opposition) ing of the bill, be said that if their Lordships proposed was a real reform; their (the Minisdetermined it should be sent to a coinnittee, ters') plan would please only corresponding he would go into it fairly aud with no wish to societies and political unions. If their (the harass the measure, but with a wish to render opposition) plau was adopted, there would be it as safe as it could be made to the Goveru- a reform without a revolutiou. (Hear.). A ment and palatable to the country. That was noble Lord (Holland) had asked, was there the pledge he gave, and he was ready to ever a revolution in a committee? Was there redeen it. If the noble Earl would adopt the no revolution, he would ask, in the time of course of going into the question of enfran- Charles I.? Was there no revolution iu France chisement first, and that of disfranchisement in the reign of Louis XVI.: Although ke after, he might have the best opportunity of|(Lord Carnarvon) had a dislike to the bill, he removing many of the difficulties in the bill would go into the committee with a sincere 'and of carrying it through. Their Lordship: wish to make it such as the country ought to had been told that the taking away soine be satisfied with. After the course he had inconsiderable boroughs was the great princi. pursued on the second reading, he should not ple of the bill. He should be glad to know
ould be glad to know oppose the bill from any priuciple of cavil; the meaniag of this. What were those incon and if, on the third readiny, he sbould think siderable boroughs ? The first bill had a it as fair and good a measure as the country different schedule A, and a different schedule had a right to look for, he should support it. B. (Hear.) Yet the House was to assume The uoble Earl concluded with deprecating that the exact pumber of boroughs to be dis- party feeling in the cousideration of the bill.. Iranchised was fifty-six. (No, no.) " Du Earl MANVERS said, he bad listened with what you will with the details," said the noble the greatest attention, and with feelings of Lords, “but if you take en franchisement first, respect, to the observations of the noble Lords and disfranchisement afterwards, the measure who had spoken in favour of the amendment, must be fatal.” The House was told that any in the auxious hope that he might find some alterations might be made in the details of the excuse or satisfaction to his couscieuce for plan; but there were three principles, enfrau- voting in support of the aweudmeut cousist
ently with the vote he had already given. Heplied, and not to those who sat on the oppos bad, however, listened in vain; and although sitiou benches. For himself, he very much he deeply regretted that circumstances should regretted that the motion which the noble have severed him from those with whom he Earl proposed to make went to deprive him had politically acted, be conscientiously be (Lord Ellenborough) of an opportunity which lieved that the essence of the bill was in scbe- he should otherwise bave possessed to-morrow, dule A. (Cheers.) That schedule A ought to to explain to the House in detail those amenda stand unimpaired was his honest and sincere ! ments, which, in conjunction with noble opinion (hear), and therefore, though he friends who thought and acted with him, it might give pain to some friends and connex. was his intention to have proposed for their ions, he could not conscientiously give his Lordships' consideration. He was unable, at vote for a motion which he firmly believed that late hour, to go inio those details fully would defeat the object he supported. (Hear.) and satisfactorily, and the respect which he
Lord CLIFFORD hegan by observing, that felt for the House rendered him unwilling to this was the first time he had addressed the attempt to do briefly and imperfectly that House. It was not his intention to enter into which he was desirous of laying before their a discussion of the principle of the bill; he Lordships with a clearbess and precision comthought it his duty to defer expressing his sen-mensurate with the importance of the subject. timents on that point until the third reading. He should merely say, that having, in conHe wished merely to observe, with regard to junction with other Peers, given the most the remark of the noble Baron (Whardcliffe) serious consideration to the great principles of and other noble Lords on the (opposition) side the bill,-having well considered the claims of the House, that Ministers persisting in their possessed by the towns included in schedules course with respect to the arrangements of the C aud D,-having likewise considered the bill, threw the onus upon them (the Ministers); reasonableness, under existing circumstances, that it was impossible to conduct the affairs of of carryiug into effect the changes which these any country like this withont, in a parlia-clauses, taken in conjunction with other parts mentary sense, party men. The first duty of a of the bill, would create,-having reflected on politician was, nut to indulge in abstract no- the proposal to give additional members to tions, but to adopt practical measures ; and the counties, and having at the same time while he believed the noble Earl conducted very strong objectivos to schedules B and himself with the utmost liberality, he could E, the result of the amendments to be proposed not think the noble Earl ought to concede would have been to give enfranchisement to io respect to the arrangements of the bill. It! an extent such as would have made it newas quite as necessary that the House should cessary (unless an inconvenient increase of support the arrangements as the principle of members of the House of Commons were rethe bill. The noble Lord was proceeding, but sorted to) to disfranchise the boroughs conthe cry of “ Question" became loud.
tained in schedule A, which, with Weymouth, The cornmittee theu divided, when the would cause a reduction of 113 members. Such numbers were
was a part of the purport of the amendments Contents (for the amendment) . 151 referred to, but which he was sorry that the Non-contents . . . . . . . 116 conduct of the noble Earl, in proposing a
postponement of the bill, prevented from Majority against Ministers 35 being hrvught forward at present. He must On the re-admission of strangers to the again express his unfeigned regret at the House, we found
course taken by the poble Earl. (Cheers from Earl Grey on his legs, expressing his inten- the opposition, miugled with laughter from tion to move that the House do resume, and the ministerial side of the House.) · He had that the further consideration of the bill be just been reminded by a noble friend near him postponed till Thursday.
that there was one most important feature of Lord LYNDHURST said he should move that the hill to which he had not alluded-he meant the next clause (B) be also postroued.
the 101. qualification. To that, as being a The question having been put,
uniform qualification, he had at a late period Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that to the stated his strong and decided objections, -obmotion of the noble and learned Lord he could jections that arose in his mind not because have no objection : peither, as appeared to the qualification was popular, but because it him, could the House object to it, after the was uniform. He had stated his regret that vote to which their Lordships had just agreed under the operation of this qualification, would He had heard with great regret the intention be excluded from direct representation in Parexpressed by the noble Earl (Grey) to move liament all the poorer classes, and he had the postponement of the further consideration thought it absolutely necessary that during of the measure till Thursday. He could assure the progress of the measure, their Lordships the noble Eart that on that the opposition) should consider whether it was not requisite, sitle of the house there existed no wish for des with a view to the permanence of any measure Jay. (Cheers from the opposition.) If that of reform, that they should continue in certain were a charge against any members of their places a more popular right of voting. For a Lordships' house, it must be directed against short perind-pamely, while existiug rights of the noble Earl and his friends: to him it ap- voting were preserved and respected the
change might pot be so much felt; but be of congratulation. He must also congratulate cootended, that it could not endure for any the uoble Baron on the proof he had given (by considerabie period after the exclusion of all stating the various persons by whom certain the humbler and poorer classes. One great propositions were to be made in committee, advantage of the system which it was now, and by his prompt attention to a suggestion proposed to overthrow was, that it gave direct from ibe noble Lord near him)-the proof that representation to all classes of the commu- there existed no concert whatsoever between nity; that while it secured the rights of pro. I noble Lords opposite in their operations. perty against the dangers of popular passion (Cheers and laughter.) He must here recur aud excitement, and gave a direct representa to what had been said by a noble Earl oppotion to wealth, it also conferred a like privi- site, who expressed his regret that no commulege on the very lowest orders, without risknication had been made to that the ministefrom the evils of democracy. The merit of rial) side of the House as to the course inthe old system was, that under it no interest tended to be taken by the opponents of the could obtain an undue preponderance. He bill in committee, and he must observe, that now threw out for the consideration of the this was the first time he had heard of any House whether it was right to disturb this disposition to make such a concession on the equilibrium-whether it would be safe pros- part of poble Lords opposite. Personally he pectively to disfranchise all the poorer classes. was not disposed to complain of a waut of He might here observe, that it was the inten communication on the subject; but on tion of a noble friend of his to propose an the part of the House he did complain, ameni jent, to which he did not expect that that the intentions of the noble Baron, the poble Earl opposite would offer any serious as he had just described them in his speech, objection. He alluded 10 a motion, the object and the amendments of the woble Lord and his of which would be to prevent persons from friends, were not explained before coming to voting for counties in respect of property lying this vote. (Hear, hear.) For what would many within the limits of boronyhs. He regretted noble Lords who voied with the noble Baron the necessity imposed on him of stating in a have said (more particularly the noble Duke manner so brief and imperfect the amend-opposite), if the noble Baron had previously ments which it had been proposed to suggest. explained to them the consequence of their One further remark, and he bad done. With voie, and informed them that he wished to respect to the 101. qualification, he thought render this democratic'measure still more dethere should be a more clear aod certain mode mocratic? (Hear, hear.) It was not his inof ascertaining the genuineness, reality, and tention to enter now upon a discussion of the value of holdings, and it was proposed to bring noble Baron's priuciples of reform ; that must forward au amendment with that view. remain for a future opportunity ; but he might
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM observed, that observe, that the ouble Lord's plan was to inwith respect to the 101. qualification, he could volve a' measure of disfranchisement to the not quite go along with the noble Baron, be-l extent of sch
le Baron, be-extent of schedule A; yet, if such was the noble .cause beyond the noble Lord's amendment he Baron's intention, surely he must regret, on (the Duke of Buckingham) wished for an more mature consideration, a vote which had ainendment to qualify, extend, and eularge thrown an obstacle in the way of the accomthe franchise in particular districts.
plishment of his own purpose by postponing Earl GREY said it was not his intention at the consideration of the clause. (Cheers and so late an hour to trouble their Lordships, ly laughter.) The noble Baron proposed to entering into a discussion of the plan of re- abolish entirely schedules B and D. He (Ear! form suggested by the poble Baron, at this Grey) might here state that this was a propolate period of the discussion. However, he could sition in which it was impossible for him to pot avoid congratulating the noble Barou, and concur. He again declared his intention to the House, on the progress which he had at propose, that on the House resuming, the leugth made in ihe principles of reform (hear), committee on the bill be deferred till Thursand also upon the extent to which he was now day. (Hear.) As to the charge of delay, content to go in disfranchiseinent, enfran- which the noble Baron had attempted to fix on chisement, aud (let it not be forgotten) exteu-him (Earl Grey), he felt perfectly satisfied to sion of the popular qualification,--an exten- rest under the accusation, being convinced sion greater than that contemplated by the that there was not a man in the couutry who destructive and revolutionary bill denounced would vot see that he was justified in the by the noble Baron and his friends (cheers course he had taken under the particular cirand laughter); greater and more exteusive, cumstances of this case. . inasmuch as the noble Lord bad expressed his After a few words from Lord ELDON, Lord intention Dot to touch the 101. qualification, auu | HOLLAND, and the LURD CHANCELLOR, which to preserve the scut-and-lot right of voting did not reach the bar, in consequence of the where it at present existed. (Hear, hear, and confusion prevailing in the House, laughter.) The noble Lord objected to the The House resumed, and the further consi. uniformity of the 101. qualification, and pro- deration of the bill in committee was postponed posed to change and correct the democratical till Thursday. tendency of the bill by bestowivg a mure extensive elective franchise. All this was matter,