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there is any objection to it, or any probability of a difference of opinion respecting it, I propose that the proceeding upon it be deferred to a more convenient opportunity; for, as I have already observed, under the circumstances in which we are placed, I trust your Lordships will concur with me in the propriety of adjourning the consideration of all questions that are likely to produce anything like con

test.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH intimated the proba ́ bility that some debate would arise on the bill mentioned by the noble Earl, so that it might be expedient to defer the motion for the second reading.

Earl GREY said he had no objection to the postponement of the second reading.

The order of the day for the second reading of the Admiralty and Navy Offices Bill was accordingly discharged.

The LORD CHANCELLOR. My Lords, I hold in my hand a petition from Dewsbury, signed by above 3000 persons, who, I am informed, are of the most respectable description, in favour of parliamentary reform. I also hold in my hand a petition from the town of Birmingham, in favour of parliamentary reform. This petition was agreed to at a meeting which was held on the 7th of the present month. A petition proceeding from so large a body of

Earl GREY then proceeded to the following effect:-And now, my Lords, after the proceedings of Monday last, and their resultafter that night's debate and decision, your Lordships are probably prepared for the information which I feel it to be my duty to communicate to you. The result of that debate and decision certainly reduced me, in coujunction with my colleagues, to the alternative of either immediately withdrawing ourselves from the service of his Majesty, or of tendering to his Majesty our advice to take such means as appeared to us to be justified by the necessity of the case to ensure the success of the Reform Bill; and, in the event of that advice not being received, humbly and respect-persons appeared to me to be worthy of your fully to tender our resignation to his Majesty. Lordships' deepest consideration. I have read The last alternative was that which, after much the petition attentively, and although it conconsideration, we were induced to adopt. We tains opinions in which some of your Lordoffered to his Majesty the advice which we ships may not concur, it is couched in respectthought it our duty, under the circumstances ful language, and I cannot Sud in it any of the times, to offer: the alternative was ac-statement upon which its reception can be obcepted by his Majesty, and he was graciously jected to. This petition is the result of a pleased to accept our resignation; at the same time honouring us with the fullest approbation of our services during the period that we have been in his Majesty's councils, during which period we have uniformly experienced from his Majesty a support and confidence for which I shall always feel most deeply grateful. My Lords, these are the circumstances under which we now stand. Having tendered to his Majesty our resignations, and those resignations having been accepted, and holding office therefore only until our successors are appointed, your Lordships will, I am sure, see the propriety of our not entering into the cousideration of any public business on which it is probable a difference of opinion may prevail. Such being the case, it is not my intention to propose to morrow that we go on with the consideration of the Reform Bill. But there is a measure of great importance, the second reading of which stands for to-night-I mean the bill for the regulation of the Admiralty and Navy Offices. It is of great moment that this bill should pass with as little delay as possible, as it has received the sanction of the other House of Parliament, and as the time fixed for its coming into operation is the 14th of May. If, therefore, no material objection exists to that measure, I hope my uoble Friend behind me will be allowed to proceed with it. If, however,

meeting, in numbers unexampled. I have been informed by an individual, on whom I cau rely, that in the course of the day above 200,000 persons attended that meeting. For the accuracy of that estimate of course I cannot myself vouch; but I had it from an individual of great respectability, of great powers of calculation, and who, I am quite confident, is incapable of wilful misrepresentatiou. I will not trouble your Lordships with entering more fully into this subject; but I beg leave to state that I stand in the same situation as my noble Friend, having felt it my duty most respectfully to tender my resignation to his Majesty, in consequence of his Majesty's having declined the advice which we thought it our duty to offer him. In stating this, however, I must add, that to the latest hour of my existence, I shall never cease to entertain the deepest and most heartfelt grati tude for the repeated proofs of confidence which I have received from his Majesty, aud for the gracious kindness with which his Majesty has always coudescended to treat me. As the petition is signed only by the chairman of the meeting, it can in point of form be received only as the petition of an individual.

At the suggestion of the Earl of SUFFOLK, the petition was read at length by the Clerk. The Earl of SUFFOLK: My Lords, I think

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that petition does great credit to the people The Earl of CARNARVON: the noble Earl of Birmingham. I congratulate myself on has moved that the order of the day for promoving from this side of the House to that. Iceeding to-morrow with the consideration of congratulate the country on the change; for the Reform Bill in committee be discharged. I am persuaded that in opposition my noble My Lords, I do not think that we shall do Friends near me may be infinitely serviceable. our duty to our Sovereign, left by the extraIn opposition they were the instruments of ordinary conduct of the noble Earl and his giving freedom to the Catholics of Ireland colleagues in a most difficult if not a most and to the Dissenters of England. But, above perilous situation, if we permit this order to all, I congratulate the people on the firm but be so contemptuously discharged, and abanpeaceable manner in which they have shown don the measure now, because we expressed their determination to obtain Parliamentary our wish-a wish which we share with the Reform. By their temperate and conciliatory great majority of intelligent persons of the conduct they have won it from their friends; country-to proceed with it on the most libelet them proceed in the same course, and they ral and conciliatory principles (a laugh, and will extort it from their enemies. (Hear, cries of hear, hear!). Because the mode of hear, hear!) proceeding which your lordships have thought The Earl of PLYMOUTH observed, that at proper to adopt, with respect to the bill, is meetings such as that from which the Bir- not exactly that of which the noble Lords opmingham petition proceeded, many persons posite approve : because the alphabetical attended, not for the purpose of meeting, but arrangement which the noble Lords opposite influenced solely by curiosity. He denied recommend, your lordships have not thought, that there was the intense anxiety among the it proper to follow-because your lordships people, on the subject of reform, which was decline to consider schedules A and B until pretended. He denied the general respecta-you have considered schedules C and D ;-, bility of the Political Unions; at least of those of which he had any knowledge. With respect to the particular meeting in question, it would not appear surprising that it was so numerous when it was known that a district of from fourteen to eighteen miles in circuinference had been ransacked to collect an assembly for the occasion; and that in some of the unions it was a rule that any person above twelve years of age was eligible as a member.

The Lord CHANCELLOR did not wish to prolong the conversation on this subject. He would merely observe, that there could be no doubt that there might be some men, women, and children, who were induced to attend the Meeting from motives of curiosity; but from the information which he had received, there could also be no doubt that the great body and bulk of the persons who assembled on that occasion were most anxious for the furtherance of the objects for which the Meeting was convened. When they were talking of hundreds of thousands, it was a matter of little impor

such are the only grounds on which the noble Lords opposite have proceeded. My Lords, the noble Lords opposite may act as they think fit: we know the grounds, the slight grounds, which their defeat on Monday evening afforded them for one of the most atrocious propositions with which a subject ever dared to insult the ears of the Sovereign. We have heard, and it was what I naturally expected to hear, that his Majesty, who was among the first to recommend reform upon broad and constitutional principles, finding himself reduced to the alternative to which his Ministers ventured to reduce him, has acted as became a Sovereign of the House of Brunswick; and, by so doing, he has established an additional title to the respect and affection of his subjects. But, my Lords, it shall not go forth to the public, because the noble Lords opposite, whatever may be the motives which have influenced them, have determined to abandon the measure, it shall not go forth to the public that this House is unwilling to enter into the discussion of its tance if a few hundreds were liable to the re- merits. This bill must be discussed, unless mark of the Noble Earl. He was happy, the majority of your lordships, which I do however, that the noble Earl had afforded him not believe, are opposed to that discussion. an opportunity of stating the loyal and peace-If, therefore, the order of the day, for proable demeanour of the great Meeting in ques-ceeding to-morrow with the consideration of tion. In no single instance had there been the the measure, be discharged, I will move inslightest violation of peace or order. stanter that it stand for Monday next. Should Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that if the it be impracticable to bring the subject fororder for proceeding with the Reform Bill in ward on so early a day, it may easily be postCommittee to-morrow were discharged, ano- poned; whereas, if it be fixed for too late a ther day should be fixed for that proceeding, day, we cannot advance the period of the Earl GREY said, that he should move to dis-discussion. I, therefore, move that your charge the order for to-morrow; but that he lordships proceed with the consideration of saw no necessity for naming any other day the Reform Bill in committee on Monday (a laugh).

Lord DURHAM presented petitions from Yeovil and Perth, in favour of Parliamentary Reform; and a petition from Durham for the abolition of Negro Slavery.

next.

Earl GREY: My Lords, I am too much accustomed to the ill-timed, violent, personal, and unparliamentary language of the noble Earl who has just sat down, to be much af

fected by the most disorderly attack which tion from the numerous evils which result the noble Earl has made upon my colleagues from the existence of the nomination boroughs. ́ and myself. Nor is it for the defence of my- The proposition made to your Lordships on self personally against the imputations which Monday was, to postpone the consideration of the noble Earl has thought proper to cast that subject to the consideration of another; upon me, that I again rise to address your and make depend on that other the disfranLordships. I trust, my Lords, that in the chisement which the hill tended first to reestimation of your Lordships and of the public, move. That was a very material change in my character is such, that I may without pre- the character of the measure. But, my Lords, sumption consider myself as sufficiently that is not all. In what situation was the auguarded from the danger of suffering from thor of the bill placed after the question of such imputations. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Monday evening was carried? The noble Earl noble Earl has been pleased to qualify the said in that discussion, that he was disposed advice which I thought it my duty respect- to grant a considerable Reform; but I did not fully to tender to my Sovereign, as atrocious hear any other noble Lord on that side of the and insulting; and there were other noble House say so, except a noble Lord who expres Lords on that side of the House who appeared sed his willingness to agree to the whole of the to agree with the noble Earl in that opinion. disfranchisement comprehended in Schedule All I can say is, that I deferred giving that ad- A. But by whom was the proposition of Monvice until the very last moment; that I did not day evening made? By a noble and learned give it until the necessity of the case and my Lord, who, in the course of the very speech sense of public duty imposed upon me an obli- which he made on that occasion, stated that gation which appeared to me to be imperative. he still considered the bill to be inconsistent Whether I was right or wrong is a question with the safety of the Government and subverwhich, whenever the noble Lord opposite may sive of the Constitution. What right had we think proper to bring it under discussion be- to suppose that the noble and learned Lord fore your Lordships, I am prepared to argue would support the disfranchising portions of and to defend my conduct in the best way I can. the bill when they came to be considered? But I appeal to your Lordships and to the Aud by whom was the noble and learned country, whether, until that period shall ar- Lord's proposition supported? In the first rive, I am called upon, whatever sinister mo- place, by a noble Duke, who has declared that tives the noble Earl may attribute to me, to the present state of the representation is incanotice the accusation.- [The Earl of Carnar-pable of being amended by human ingenuity von said across the table that he did not imor wisdom. By whom else was that proposipute sinister motives to the noble Earl]. The tion supported? By another noble Duke, who feeling which prompts the noble Earl to make has declared himself hostile to any disfrauhis violent addresses to your Lordships, is chisement-by a noble Baron, who expressed such as sometimes to render him unconscious his hope that, by adopting the proposition of of the language he uses. If, however, the the noble and learned Lord, their Lordships noble Earl disclaims the expression which I might entirely avoid the necessity of any disquoted, of course I do not wish to insist upon franchisement. My Lords, under these cirthat point. I repeat, that the advice which I cumstances, is it not childish to say that the offered to my Sovereign, when the proper question decided by your Lordships on Monday time comes I am prepared to defend; and in was merely one of torm or precedence (hear, the meanwhile, I throw nyself upon the can hear, hear!)? In the circumstances in which dour of your Lordships and of the country, that decision placed me, I had first to see and ask if it be possible that I could have whether I could obtain the means of insuring been actuated by any other motive than a the success of the measure; and having failed strict sense of duty? Having as a Minister in that attempt, 1 had to consider whether it of the Crown given the advice which I thought would be consistent with my duty to my Soveit my duty to give, and that advice not having reign and to the public, and with the maintebeen accepted, I had no alternative but most nauce of my own character and honour, to humbly and respectfully to tender my resig- continue the mere shadow of a Minister, and nation to his Majesty. The noble Earl says to have the Reform Bill taken out of my hands, that the grounds on which we proceeded were for the purpose of being cut, carved, mutilaonly trifling; that they were only mere matters ted, and destroyed, just as its opponents might of form; that, in point of fact, it was only if think proper (hear, hear, hear!). My Lords, the discussion of the schedules C and D should I am convinced that in the opinion of all your or should not precede the discussion of the Lordships, even of those noble Lords who do schedules A and B. If that was really the not approve of the Reform Bill, the course case, then the noble Earl is right: but that which I have taken will be attributed only to a was not the case. In the debate on Monday sense of the duty which I owe to my Sovereign evening, I distinctly stated to your Lordships and my country, and a sense of what was due the reasons which rendered it evident to me to that personal honour which, I trust, I have that the question which we were discussing never yet forfeited (hear, hear !). I stand be was of the utmost importance, and that it ma-fore the public responsible for my actions. I terially affected the principle of the Bill. The am ready to meet any charge which may be principle of the Bill is, to relieve the Constitu- brought against me, and to vindicate my con

duct and my motives whenever the proper oc- country (and that had not been contradicted), casion may arrive (hear, hear!). Oue word, he asked if ever, on such slight grounds, a promy Lords, as to what the noble Earl has posal had been made, the tendency of which chosen to call the contemptuous manner in was absolute destruction of that House and which I have moved to discharge the Order the aunihilation of its legislative and politifor to-morrow. It is the usual motion on such cal importance-and made in the spirit of occasions. It is not for me to appoint any other that dictation, which, from the beginning to day. Even the noble Earl finds a difficulty in the end of their course, had marked the prodoing so. For myself, I certainly cannot pro-ceedings of the noble Lords opposite; and ceed with the bill under the circumstances which induced them to endeavour to make which have occurred. I trust that out of all their Lordships the abject tools of their will ? these unhappy differences, a measure of Re- The motion which he had made he had made form may eventually arise, extensive, efficient, to enable every peer to show his conviction and beneficial (if not extensive and efficient, (and although there might be some differit will not be beneficial)- -a measure which ences of opinion, that he was satisfied was the may be satisfactory to the country, and which general feeling) that, in the present state of may restore the attachment of the people to the country, their Lordships had no choice, the institutions of the State. But it is impossi- but were under the necessity of conceding ble for me to proceed with the measure, sub-some considerable, and as safe as possible, ject to the daily alterations which might be reform. It was highly desirable that this forced upon me by a majority, four-fifths of opportunity should be afforded as soon as which consist of persons who object to all Re-possible. He called upon their Lordships, form whatever. To the unjust, the ill-timed, therefore, not to adjourn the question to any and I will add, the unprovoked attack of the distant period. He would, therefore, propose noble Earl, I should, perhaps, not have con- that the order be made for Monday; and if sidered it necessary to make any answer, had on that day a further postponement should be I not been desirous to set set myself right with considered necessary, it might occur. At your Lordships and with the public, with re-present, however, he did not see any reason ference to the motives which have influenced why the subject might not be brought forward me, and the sense of duty under which I have on Mouday. acted (hear, hear!).

The Earl of CARNARVON disclaimed any intention of imputing to the noble Earl a contemptuous feeling, or of charging him with sinister motives. He had certainly conceived that the alternative to which the noble Earl had originally alluded was the making of such a number of peers as would have degraded that House. But he never meant to impute to him that he recommended so tremendous a proceeding merely to escape the mortification of being occasionally outvoted in that House. When he said that it was the most atrocious advice that a Minister ever gave to his Sovereign, he said it in perfect good temper; if warmly, it was because as a member of that House he felt warmly on the subject. If such atrocious counsel as that he alluded to were not given to his Majesty, but some other alternative, the nature of which he was at a loss to conceive, he begged pardon for having used the expression. After the attack which had been made upon him by the noble Earl (a laugh), he must he allowed

The motion, that the House would on Monday proceed with the consideration of the Reform Bill in committee, was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

9th May, 1832.

Lord ALTHORP entered the House before five o'clock, and was received with cheers from the treasury benches. He rose shortly after, and said it was his duty to state to the House, that in consequence of what took place in another place on Monday last, it appeared quite impossible to his Majesty's Government to hope that they could carry the Reform Bill in such a manner as they thought cousistent with their duty, or without such alterations as would render it so inefficient, that, according to the pledges they had given, they could not carry it forward. Under these circumstances they had only the alternative to tender their resignations, or to advise his Majesty to take such measures as would enable them to carry it as Lord DOVER spoke to order. The noble it ought to be carried; and if his Majesty did Earl ought to confine himself to explanation. not accede to their request, to tender him The Earl of CARNARVON observed, in con- their resignations. They adopted the latter tinuation, that having made a motion of no course. The result had been that they small importance, he was entitled to reply tendered their resignations, which his even at much greater length. The noble Majesty was graciously pleased to accept. Earl had said that he (Lord Carnarvon) was, Consequently they now only held office perhaps, in a state of irritation, which, per- until their successors should be appointhaps, precluded him from being conscious of ed. It was impossible for him, howthe language which he used. He could as-ever, to leave office without expressing for sure the noble Earl and their Lordships that himself, as he believed he might for all his he spoke not in anger but in dismay. If he colleagues, his aud their sense of the kindwas not wrong in supposing that such adviceness and condescension with which they had as had been alluded to had been given to the been uniformly treated, since they held office,

It was essential to the well

by his Majesty. For himself he could say, ascertained. that the mode in which his Majesty had being of the country that it should be unealways treated him, and the condescension quivocally and firmly expressed. He hoped, he had invariably displayed towards him, was however, that the noble Lord would reconsuch as to ensure his gratitude as long as he sider the call of the House. It could not be lived. He had now stated all it was neces-effectual, as notice could not be given to the sary for him to state, and would move that Members absent from town. the order of the day for the second reading of the Scotch Reform Bill be read, for the purpose of proposing its postponement.

Mr. LABOUCHERE entreated the noble Lord to persevere in his motion. If the House now shrunk from their duty, he, for one, feared that the greatest calamities must follow. If the House did what the country had a right to expect from it, the country would receive intelligence which would be communicated to it; but if the House did not, as was its duty, place itself in the front of the battle-if they were such cravens as to allow a Government which had honourably redeemed its pledges to be driven from their seats by a vote of the other House, he, for one, should have most melancholy anticipations. (Hear, hear.) He could not avoid contemplating scenes at which every man must shudder.

Lord EBRINGTON, after expressing his regret (as we imagine) that a measure which had been sanctioned by so great a majority of that House was defeated in another place, pro-with sorrow, but in a peaceful manner, the ceeded to say, that under the circumstances, he felt it his duty to propose a motion to morrow, of which he would now give notice. To-morrow he would move an humble address of that House to his Majesty on the present state of public affairs (cheers), and although he supposed that every Gentleman, whatever might be his opinion, would atteud on the occasion, he would move that this House be called over to-morrow.

Mr. G. LANGTON was of opinion, that nothing short of the present measure of reform would satisfy the people.

Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Government had acted well and wisely in resigning. His hon. Friend (Hume) had talked of the hopes of the people of England being frustrated. That, he believed, was impossible. All Eng. land had spoken, and had sent a great ma

Mr. HUME observed, that he was bound in justice to say, that the uoble Lord and his col. leagues had, as Ministers, now no other course to follow. He did state that, in his opinion,jority of reformers to Parliament for all open they had done honour to themselves; and not places. The only question was, would they in his opinion only, but in that of the whole be firm to themselves, or would they shrink country. He had extremely to regret, that from the contest with a sordid oligarchy? If the just expectations of a united people, car- the people of England were true to themselves, ried on from day to day, and so loug, unfor- and insisted on reform, they must have it. tunately, kept in suspense, were now likely to The people of Scotland, he knew, did manfully meet with complete frustration. As a true insist on reform, and when they had so come reformer, and a lover of his country, he could forward, they never yet had failed. They had not but regret to see that the cause of reform won the toleration creed they loved by their had been interrupted. He had hoped that the good broad swords, aud now, without them, noble Earl would have been enabled, by the and by constitutional means, he had no doubt same support and countenance wherewith he they would win reform. For Ireland, he could had introduced the measure, to bring it to a merely say, that the universal people would prosperous conclusion. (Hear, hear.) For not shrink from their share of the contest. himself, he waited with impatience for the He hoped the noble Lord would persevere, motion of the noble Lord (Ebrington) to- and he trusted no member would absent himmorrow; and he trusted that, to refuse that self to-morrow. He hoped no man who had motion, every man would adopt that course flattered the people with his vote on reform the purity of that body. For his own part, would now shrink from his duty in coming which the interests of the country, the diguity forward. Indeed, he had too great coufiof that House, and the public peace required.dence in the majority of that House to Lord ALTHORP said, that it appeared to him, that in the present crisis of the country, and in the present state of public affairs, any measure that might throw impediments in the way of the new Administration ought to be cautiously avoided (Hear, hear, hear), and would be exceedingly impolitic. (Hear, hear, hear.) Therefore he should much wish that his noble Friend had postponed any appeal to the opinion of the House, until the new ministration was formed. (Cheers.)

suppose that it contained a skulker or a recreant. Let all then attend, and let them firmly and respectfully send forth an address to the Throne, which would inform his Majesty that the truly loyal and those most attached to the succession of the House of Brunswick were the most determined that the rights of the people should be restored.

Mr. JAMES put a question, which was unAd-derstood to be a request to know whether the noble Lord would communicate to the House the cause of that resignation which he had just announced.

Sir J. NEWPORT differed with his noble Friend; he hoped the noble Lord (Ebrington) would not withdraw his motion. (Hear, hear.) It was well, in times like these, that the opinion of the majority of the House should be

Lord ALTHORP said that he did not know that he was at liberty to state more at present, than that his colleagues and hiuself had

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