was legal and constitutional in the way of agitation and resistance. From this moment he considered that there were only two parties in the kingdom-the party of Reform and the party of the Duke, and those who were not avowedly for reform, were, of course, to be reckoned in the number of its worst opponents. Mr. MACAULAY only wished to say a few words; and complained, in the first place, that the hon. Member for Thetford had himself improperly introduced the royal name, for the sake of influencing the decision of the House. With all respect for the services and talents of his hou. and gallant friend (Sir H. Hardinge) he must fairly and frankly, in the language of Parliament and of gentlemen, and without the slightest admixture of personality, express what he thought of the conduct of the Duke of Wellington. Two evils grew out of the present state of affairs, one the danger of losing the Reform Bill, and the other, the deep injury inflicted upon the characters of public men. (Cheers.) Above all, of one public man, for whom he had entertained feelings of such high veneration, that he would almost rather the disgrace should have fallen upon any other individual, however near or dear to him. He could not contemplate, without the most acute pain, the possible degradation of perhaps the most illustrious name in British history. On the 16th April, the Duke of Wellington, with the utmost formality, had declared that the disfranchising clauses of the Reform Bill were shocking to all notions of justice; that the principles of the measure were destructive of the Monarchy; and yet, before the 16th of May, he had jumped to the conclusion, that all he before resisted was right, and all that he had declared needless was necessary. (Cheers.) The Duke was now, it seemed, alive to the perils of the State-to the agitation of the public mind to the earuest wishes of the vast body of the King's subjects; but did not all these exist before the 16th of April, or were his Grace's eyes ouly opened when he saw an opportunity of again obtaining office? If the recent division against the Reform Bill were the cause of the change in the public mind, if the Duke thought that it had produced it, it had been in his power to prevent it; and not having prevented it, he ought not to be allowed to take advantage of his own wrong. In siguing the protest, when he knew the state of excitement out of doors, the Duke had been guilty of one act of public immorality; and he was guilty of a second act of public immorality, if, having signed the protest, he now at once abandoned its principles. What difference was there in the state of the question between the 16th April and the 16th May, excepting that at the first date the Duke of Wellington was in oppostion, and at the last date in place? (Hear, hear.) If the characters of such eminent public men were to sustain this disgrace, it became the representatives of the people to let their constituents see that the stain did not belong to them-that somebody might yet be trusted-that all were not ready to sacrifice principle to place. If those who had so repeatedly and so unanimously declared against Reform now called themselves its advocates, it became doubly the duty of the House of Commons to take care of the bill, and of its most minute details. If, when it was returned from the Lords, he saw that it still contained any important public good, he should readily support it. He thought that no pledge could he stronger than that which the Duke of Wellington made in his protest against the Reform Bill, and if that pledge should have been violated within one month, no other pledge of an administration formed of those who subscribed to the protest could hold out long. (Cheers.) Therefore he would say, that he should give no confidence to such a Ministry, coming into power upon principles directly contrary to those to which, in the protest, they bad pledged themselves. (Hear, hear.) He should, indeed, always support the Reform Bill, through whatever hands it might be carried; but on the day after the passing of the bill, he should take such measures as might be the best calculated to show that the House would give no confidence or support to such an Administration. To state at once that he would take that course, was a duty which he owed to himself; for the present was a time when the character of public men required, above all things, to be carefully looked to; and he believed that the time was not distant when character and power would be synonymous. Therefore, if others would have infamy and place, let the House of Commons, atleast, have honour and reform. (Great cheers.) He Sir H. HARDINGE attempted to address the House, but what he said was rendered inaudible by the cries of "Spoke, spoke," was understood to address himself to the Chair. The SPEAKER said that, although the hon. and gallant Gentleman had already spoken upon the question before the House, yet, if he had anything to explain, or if he conceived that anything had been said which was contrary to the order and usage of the House, the House would hear him. Mr. MACAULAY said, that he believed he should be able to put an end to the discussion if the House would allow him to say a few words. (Spoke, spoke.) He would assure the hon. and gallant Baronet, that in anything which he had said he had no intention to swagger, as the gallant Baronet supposed. The gallant Baronet himself was not more aware than he (Mr. Macaulay) that it was absurd to use swaggering language in that House. (Hear, hear, hear.) But in what he (Mr. Macaulay) had said, there was nothing like menace or swaggering. All he said was, that if others-and he did not particularly point at any person-consented to have infamy and place, he hoped that the House of Commons would preserve its honour, and adhere to the Reform Bill. (Cheers.) Sir GEORGE MURRAY said, that the hon. Gentleman had used strong expressions, had assumed a tone different from that which he (Sir G. Murray) had no wish to imi-adopted by the persons to whom he altate. For his part he (Sir G. Murray) was luded. That noble Lord had said, that always desirous to avoid the use of language if any measure was brought forward by which might give offence; and he thought the new Ministry, be they whom they may, that if at all times it was desirable for the which should seem to him to be beneficial to Members of that House to proceed with tem- the country, he would give them so far his as per and moderation, the present times espe- sistance and support. As to what had fallen cially required that they should do so. The from the hon. Member for Hertford, who gave hon. Member for Calne had spoken of infamy an illustration respecting the vine, he could being incurred by persons accepting places; not help smiling, for the Tories were not the but surely the hou. Gentleman must be aware persons who had browsed in the spot to which that in the present circumstances of the coun- the hou. Gentleman alluded. The noble Lord, try place could not be very desirable. (Hear, the Member for Northamptonshire, had hear.) But there might be an emergency drawn a distinction between loyalty and that which should induce men of honour and prin- sort of attachment which induced men to bend ciple to take office, notwithstanding the diffi- to all the caprices of the Sovereign, but there culties with which they should have to con- was yet no reason to accuse any persons of tend. (Hear.) As to the course which the that sort of blind devotion. Without the new Administration were supposed to intend, fullest information, the House ought not to be he must say, that surely it was the duty of persuaded that the King had acted with capublic men to follow at any time the course price. There had been no proof that his Mawhich the public good, according to the cir-jesty had abandoned the principles to which, cumstances of the times, required. (Hear, in his speech from the throne, he had before hear, hear.) It was too much to accuse pledged himself; or that he did not still enstatesmen of inconsistency because they tertain the sentiments which he was known to adopted that course. But if the persons who have expressed. (Hear, hear.) All they knew were to constitute the new Administration was, that his Ministers made to him a propo were accused of inconsistency, he would take sition with which he did not think it right to leave to ask, was there no inconsistency upon comply. But they did not know what were the other side? (Hear.) Had there been no the circumstances which induced his Majesty inconsistency on the part of the noble Lord, to think that he ought not, at the time, to do the Paymaster of the Forces? (Hear, hear.) what his Ministers advised him to. Under It was always unpleasant to him (Sir G. Mur- these circumstances (and he spoke there only ray) to make charges against any one; but as an individual, and without authority from he now felt justified in asserting that the any quarter whatever)-it appeared to him, noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, had, that the only line which it became the House both in his speeches in that House, and in to follow was, to support the Crown. (Cheers.) pamphlets published under his name, ex- An hon. MEMBER (whose name we could pressed himself hostile to those very princi- not learn) said, that heretofore he had always ples upon which he had since framed his Re-doubted that it would be a wise or expedient form Bill. (Hear, hear, hear.) Besides, se. veral colleagues of the noble Lord had frequently expressed themselves hostile to the principles of reform altogether. When the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whom he did not then see in his place, was on one occasion defending some of those gentlemen from a charge of inconsistency, he said that it was most improper and unjust to accuse statesmen of inconsistency when they were induced to alter their policy, foreign or domestic, with the altered circumstances of the country. (Hear, hear.) He recollected that on that occasion, his right hon. Friend beside him (Sir R. Peel) joined with the noble Lord in repelling the charge of inconsistency which was cast upon public men for having altered their policy upon a particular question. (The noise in the House of members talking and moving about was such, that for a great part of the hon. Gentleman's speech he was heard imperfectly.) It was, evidently, the wish of some persons in that House, and it was expressly the object of some who spoke to-night, to cramp the Sovereign in the choice of Ministers. He was very glad to observe that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) course to create new peers, for the purpose of carrying a particular measure. But now all his doubts were removed. The occurrences of the last week had convinced him that new peers ought to have been created. (Cheers.) As that had not been done, it remained for the House of Commons to send up to the Lords a Bill of Supply in company with a Reform Bill. He did not think that, in such a case, the House of Lords would venture to separate what the Commons had joined (Cheers, and a laugh.) The speech of the hon. Member for Thetford had been alluded to already by seve‐ ral speakers, and he also would advert to one topic introduced by that Gentleman. Coming into town that morning, he saw several detachments of the army on their march. Now, certainly it might be that they were merely changing quarters; but the appearance of troops moving from place to place at the present conjuncture was enough to "fright the isle from its propriety." (Cheers.) He agreed with the observations of the hon. Member for Calue, and would join with that Gentleman in taking measures to show that they had no confidence in the men whom it was understood the King had taken to his councils; and he was sure that the country would also show that it reposed no confidence in those persons. (Cheers.) the great men to whom he had alluded-and, above all things, by the effect produced in the country by the declaration of the Duke of WelLord J. RUSSELL felt himself called upon, linuton, that no reform was necessary-that. on an occasion like the present, to show that the system of representation was as perfect the conduct which was said to be borne out by as the wit of man could devise, and that he his example was in every respect dissimilar to (the noble Duke) would never consent to any everything that he had ever done. (Hear, reform of any kind whatever. (Cheers.) Such hear.) He thought it to be his duty, in such were his reasons for agreeing with his noble a case, to lay before the House his own con- Friend (Earl Grey), in the interviews which duct and that of the gentlemen, whoever they he had with him in the commencement of his might be, who were about to take office as ministry, that any reform which they should Cabinet Ministers. It had been said that he determine to produce ought to be of the most had changed his opinions on the subject of decided character, and therefore they adopted reform. His opinions had at all times been the measure to which that House had since expressed just as he entertained them at the given its sanction. (Cheers.) But he would time; and yet all that could be brought home put it to the candour of Gentlemen opposite, to him on the subject of change of opinion and of the honourable Baronet who had apwas, that from having been a reformer twelve pealed to him (Sir G. Murray), whether that years ago, and that not of the most moderate change which had taken place in his opinions class of reformers-from being a reformer in the course of twelve years, was equal in who proposed to take one hundred members danger to the change which had taken place from places now represented in that House, in the opinions of some gentlemen within the and to give them to the great towns-from last twelve days, (Vehement cheering.) In being such a reformer, he had come to be the twelve days, those gentlemen had changed, advocate of that reform which for a long time from opposition to all reform as revolutionary, he had endeavoured to rendered unnecessary to the support of that reform which they de-that was the total disfranchisement of no-nominated as the most revolutionary that mination boroughs. But that change in his could be devised. (Cheers.) It was now a conduct and the necessity of the case had been matter of boast with their friends, that those brought about, first, by the obstinate resist-persons who signed twelve days ago a declara-. ance which had been made by the Government now coming into office to the most moderate reform; (cheers;) secondly, by the altered condition of the country; and thirdly, by the opinions of many persons of the highest authority, differing from each other on the question of reform. He would mention two of those persons by whose opinions he had been influenced, and it would be admitted that they had few opinions in common upon the general question of reform-Lord Grey and the late Mr. Canning. It was the opinion of those gentlemen, that if any measure of reform was to be carried, it ought to be founded on such principles as would render it final, (cheers,) so far as it was possible for the legislature to make it so. On these three considerations it was that he had come to the opinion, that if a reform were effected, however extensive it might be in other respects, but which should leave seats in that House avowedly at the disposal of individuals, the question would still be left open to discussion, and there would still be a call for further reform. (Cheers.) Such was the nature of the inconsistency which could be charged upon him. But it could not be said, that, like some, he had changed from a reformer to an anti-reformer (cheers,) nor had he, like others, changed suddenly determined hostility to all reform to the advocacy of such a measure as that House had passed. (Cheers.) He had changed only from moderate to extensive reform, that change being effected in him by the necessity, as he had said, brought on by gentlemen opposite-by the change in the condition of the country-by the opinion of [tion that they opposed the Reform Bill as re- that should conduct it through that House, that was a time when the character of public provided only that they carry it through un- men was of so much importance, that “any Touched in all its principles. (Hear, hear.) loss was better than the loss of character" But he would own that he felt a difficulty in (prolonged cheering); because the character trusting much to the future prospects of the of public men was the foundation of public conbill, and that difficulty was not diminished fidence. (Repeated cheering.) Such being by what had fallen from the hon. Member for the sentiments of the noble Duke, he (Lord Thetford. He could not see what the reason J. Russell) could not believe that he (Lord was wherefore that honourable Gentleman Wellington) would place himself in a situation had not professed the same sentiments a in which the people would be able to say to week ago, and declared himself ready to him that he had violated his pledges and support the bill. (Hear, hear.) Was the sen- falsified his opinions, and that in future, with timent with which honourable Gentlemen whatever solemnity he might pledge himhad acted to be expressed in these words: self to any line of conduct with whatever "We will not object to the bill if you give us earnestness he might state his opinions, the your places; give us your offices and we shall public could never have confidence in the man carry your bill." (Vehement cheering.) Well, who could sweep away in one day the most if they had plainly and honestly avowed that solemu protestations of his whole life. (Great sentiment, or if they had given an intelligible cheering.) The hon. Member for Thetford intimation that they entered with such views, had come down to the House with an intimaLord Grey would have willingly given up his tion that the change of opinion had taken office and the bill together into their hands. place, and he seemed to suppose that such a (Cheers.) He would have said that the change was no more than a summer cloud, measure was to him an occasion of pain and which would pass away without exciting wonthorns, and that he would give up the bill to der or alarm. But he would assure the hon. them if they would carry it as it was; that is Gentleman that the people attached more imto say, if they would revoke every pledge portauce than he (Mr. Baring) did to the which they had ever given-if they would re- character of the persons to whom the affairs of tract every sentiment that they had ever the country might be entrusted (hear, hear): uttered. (Repeated cheers.) But if the senti-and the Duke of Wellington himself was no orments of those gentlemen had not undergone dinary person. (Hear.) He was one in whose the change which was supposed to have taken character the whole country was interested. place in them-if they were determined to (Hear, hear.) Having said thus much in mutilate the bill, or to introduce clauses into reply to the hon. Member for Thetford, he it which would deprive the people of the power would beg leave to say a few words in referto control their representatives, in that case ence to the right hon. member for Tamworth, the Reform Bill would be essentially different who had been alluded to in connexion with from that which it was when sent up from the present subject, and respecting certain that House, and it would be such as might ac-reports which were in circulation. It was count for those gentlemen's support. He was, said that the right hon. Gentleman was not indeed, very doubtful that they would carry now about to take place in the new Administhe bill without making alterations to suit it tration. (Hear.) To that rumour, he (Lord to their opinions, unless they should be in-J. Russell) did not hesitate to give credence. duced to keep it as it was, for the sake of He had ever spoken of the right hon. Gentleretaining their places, which really seemed to man with respect; and, indeed, on one occabe to them the object of their whole ambition.sion he regretted, for the sake of his (Sir R. (Cheers.) But if they should not mutilate Peel's) character, that he had consented to the bill if they should send it back to that remain in office whilst another great question, House with alterations only in some minor to which the hon. Baronet was known to be points not affecting the principles, or the more opposed, was carried. (Hear, hear.) But he important of its provisions, he would make no (Lord J. Russell) understood that the right objection to such alterations. (Hear, hear.) hon. Gentleman was so entangled that he Now there was another question-no less could not escape, and that his conduct was important than the question of reform, re- influenced by the purest motives. (Hear, hear.) specting the character of public men. (Cheers.) Therefore, and for all that he had seen of that When he attached so much importance to Gentleman, he readily gave credence to the that question, he was only uttering the senti- statement that he would not take office in the ments which the Duke of Wellington had present conjuncture, and he was sure that the expressed in stronger terms, on the occasion right hon. Baronet would not follow any course when there was some question respecting the which honour did not sanction. (Hear, hear.) retirement of Mr. Huskisson from office, and But, perhaps, as had been suggested, the when that gentleman made it the condition of right hon. Gentleman might yet think him. his remaining in the Administration that the self placed in a situation in which he ought Duke of Wellington should solicit him to to give his support to the Administration, remain. But the Duke, thinking it below the although he would not consent to take part in dignity of his station to make such a solicita-it. But the right hon. Baronet had often tion, said that, however valuable the services before expressed his sentiments on the ques of Mr. Huskisson might be to the state, yet tion of reform, aud it appeared to him (Lord and cries of Oh, oh!) He had not come down prepared for the present discussion. He had not brought with him, like the noble Lord, carefully selected quotations to enable him to cast imputations upon others. (Cries of spoke.) He was sure that nobody would deprecate more than hon. Gentlemen opposite the reading of partial extracts from one of their speeches without giving them with the context. (A laugh.) He would ask the noble Lord opposite, if he did not, upon one occasion, say, that he would look upon the disfranchisement of Gatton and Old Sarum to be as great an infraction of the constitution as anything that had been done by King James the Second? Lord J. RUSSELL explained that what he had said upon the occasion referred to was, that the franchise of Gatton or of Old Sarum was a trust, as the Crown was a trust, and that when the Legislature deprived those places of a trust, that ought not to be done except upon as good grounds as those upon which King James had been expelled. (Cheers.) John Russell) that those sentiments were such Sir E. SUGDEN said, that it might be very as must prevent him (Sir Robert Peel) from well for Gentlemen to speak of infamy and giving his aid to such an Administration, and dishonour attaching to those who accepted from bringing to its support that eloquence office. But Gentlemen must be aware, that which, strengthened by his high character, he for one could not accept office without inhad so often gained the support of the House curring loss and inconvenience, and could to the measures which he advocated. The therefore be influenced only by a feeling of right hon. Baronet's sentiments on this sub-public duty. (Cheers, mingled with laughter, ject had been recorded on a very late occasion. He (Lord John Russell) would venture to read the terms in which those sentiments were recorded. But he would first premise that, last year, very much to his regret, the right honourable Baronet stated that he could agree to some measure of eufranchisement, as that was altogether a matter of expediency, but that to disfranchisement he never could assent, as that involved a question of justice, and to an act of injustice nothing should force him to be a party. (Hear, hear.) On the third reading of the Reform Bill, the right hon. Baronet having enumerated all the evils which he believed the measure would produce, and having supposed some liberal and enlightened individual in future times sighing after the blessings which the nation had enjoyed under the present constitution, and breathing forth bitter reproaches against those who had forfeited for him his bright and precious inheritance, concluded with these words:"That I may not be called to the bar of posterity,that I may not be visited with that censure which will naturally arise from the evils, public and private, which I foresee this bill must create,-that I may carry with me to the last the satisfaction of having struggled in this conflict with perseverance, although without effect, and the consolation of having surrendered without dishonour, my last vote shall be given as my first-in opposition to this bill." Such were the sentiments of the right hon. Baronet at the time when last he gave a vote upon this question. Now he (Lord J. Russell) presumed that having given that vote, and upon those grounds, the right hon. Baronet could not be induced by anything that had since occurred to vote in another way under another administration. (Hear, hear.) But he understood that there were others who, on the same occasion, gave their last vote on the same question, and who were now ready to give another last vote. (Cheers and laughter.) It was not for him to regret that they should do so. On the coutrary, let the bill be passed, and he should rejoice. He should gladly accept the boon, by whatever hands it might be conveyed. (Hear, hear.) The bill would be a great aud permanent benefit to the country. It would secure peace and good government; and such a measure was not to be rejected on account of the party from whom it might come. But he would say now, once and for ever, that after that measure should have been passed, he could give no support or confidence to those who, in carrying that measure, would stand in the face of the country publicly dishonoured. (Vehement cheering for some minutes.) Sir E. SUGDEN would not then go into the question as to whether Gatton and Old Sarum ought to be disfranchised. But when the noble Lord thought proper to attack Gentlemen upon his side of the House for having changed their opinions, he thought it right to remind the noble Lord that he himself was liable to the same charge. (Hear, hear, hear.) He never was more surprised than when he came into that House, and heard it complained of that Gentlemen upon that (the Tory) side of the House had mixed up the King's name with this discussion. He would ask the House whether it was not by the Gentlemen opposite the name of the King was first brought forward in this question? They united it with the name of the people; and he would desire nothing more earnestly than that the King's name should always be united with the name of the people, only that from that union the aristocracy should not be omitted. (Cheers.) The noble Lord had said that the present was a question of character. Well, in what way was the character of the Duke of Wellington compromised by the course which he had adopted? (Hear, hear.) He was sure that his right hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) could not be pleased to hear himself lauded at the expense of the noble Duke. He was sure that his right hon. Friend placed confidence in the noble Duke, as did also a great portion of the people. (A laugh, and cries of Oh, oh! replied to by cheers.) So far as the character of public men was concerned, he thought that the reproach was to be cast on others, not upon the Duke of Wellington. During the debate upon the second reading of the bill, he (Sir E. |