in his great name, in his high situation, or within the last few days, even within the last even in his eminent service-which no one is forty-eight hours, much peril would have been more ready gratefully to acknowledge than avoided to the country. The character of the myself I say the noble Duke's friends are noble Duke would have stood a great deal much mistaken if they suppose that there is higher, and he would have entitled himself to anything in these circumstances which can the lasting gratitude of the country. At the screen his character, as a public man, from same time the character and conduct of the undergoing the same investigation, from being | House of Lords would not be subject, as subject to the same discussion, from being under other circumstances they would, to judged on the same principles, and from being lasting execration. (Loud cheers.) decided upon on the same grounds with those Mr. BARING-I hope the House will excuse of every other public man in this country. me for again obtruding myself upon its notice, (Cheers.) Sir, it is with this freedom and in after what has fallen from the noble Lord. I this manner that I shall always assert my right can assure the noble Lord and the hon. as an independent Member of Parliament. Attorney-General that the look and tone (Hear, hear.) I trust that I shall always do so which it has pleased them to assume-the with the respect that is due to this House, and taunts they have thrown out (cheers), shall in language belonging to myself as a gentle-not make me swerve from my opinion, or man; and, indeed, I trust that I am not in prevent me from fearlessly discharging my the habit of bringing any charge against my duty in this House. (Hear, hear.) The noble political opponents in any other language, Lord-but he said so many things that I notwithstanding what the honourable Mem- hardly recollect what I should first reply to, ber for Thetford has been pleased to lay to (some hon. Member whispered Mr. Baring) my charge. That honourable Gentleman has-yes, if the noble Lord, getting up with a thought proper to read me a lesson with re- high hand, using expressions in the course of spect to my supposed want of common de- the discussion implying that I am disentitled cency, for such, I think, were the words that to the ordinary courtesy of the House-if the he presumed to apply to me. (Cheers.) Sir, noble Lord chooses to make me the butt to I will not bandy such terms backwards and that sort of expressions, I can only tell the forwards with the honourable Gentleman, but noble Lord that I hold them in utter contempt. he must allow me to say, that if there is any (Cheers.) From the time I have been in the one in this House to whom I should be disposed House, I am sure that my reputation will not to apply such language, it would be to him suffer from any such personal observations on (hear, hear,)-rising this night, as he has account of a difference of opinion. (Cheers.) done, to make a tardy defence of political With the leave of the House, I will say a little inconsistency, (cheers,) on the part of on the question notwithstanding. The obhimself or others, when I have heard him, jections I made to the course lately adopted, time after time, in this House, raking up is the same as that stated by my right hon. speeches made ten or twenty years ago, to-Friend (Sir R. Peel), viz. that the subject is gether with extracts from pamphlets; and, on not yet ripe for discussion. (Hear.) Respectthe strength of these, applying to my noble ing the conduct of the late Government, I Friend terins of vituperation-(loud cheering), avow that my opinions are made up; but the -which, until this Reform Bill was intro-House has no evidence; it cannot know duced, I never heard applied by anybody, in the greatest heat of political party, to any Minister of the Crown. Gentlemen seem this evening to have argued as if there was no alternative to be adopted by the noble Duke, except either admitting a forced creation of peers by the King, or accepting the government of the country and dragging the Lords to the passing of the bill. But, Sir, is there no third course? (Loud cheering.) Is it absolutely necessary that those who have so deeply pledged themselves against the bill, should now be compelled to eat their words? (Hear, hear.) I wish that the right hon. Bart., or any person not liable to any imputations, would show how it can be settled. If the noble Duke himself could stand up and say that the impossibility he finds to conduct the affairs of the country would make him use all his influence among his friends to pass the measure, he would succeed, no doubt, in putting an end to further discussion. (Hear, hear.) I will not say when that should be done, or when it would come too late. If a course of that description had been adopted whom the Crown has employed to defend it. It is premature then to entertain the subject at present; but whatever situation I may stand in towards the House, when it can be fairly discussed, I shall fearlessly state my opinion. As to what the hon. Gentleman said about my inconsistency, or the inconsistency of a much greater man-for the Duke of Wellington, how ever much some people might now scoff at him, had a great debt of gratitude owing to him by the country-I must say that neither he nor I have altered our opinions. We do not now say that the Reform Bill, which we described as a bad bill, is a good bill. I do not hold any such opinion, and we (a laugh) have not changed. I am confident that we cannot be accused of inconsistency. The case stands thus :-In the opinion of the King, the Crown feels itself forced to feel certain scruples, and these scruples will not allow him to do what is desired of him. It will not be said that these scruples, at least, are not reasonable scruples. The noble Lord at the head of the Ministry stated himself repeatedly that the measure, about which the Crown has scruples, he should take | conflict in which he is involved, because he with reluctant-no, that was a weak term- does not choose to endanger the constitution but with the greatest repugnance. If that by committing a fatal violence on one part of were felt by the noble Earl-and no man it. That is, I take it, an honest view; and I doubted his integrity-surely the scruples of shall say sincerely, that the noble Duke, the Crown were entitled to some respect. without changing his mind-not seeing any (Hear, hear.) I know, that under whatever thing in the bill to approve of, but seeing the circumstances, the name of the Crown and state of excitement in the country-seeing of the King is introduced in this House, it is the danger to which it might lead, supposing unconstitutional; but, at present, it was im- nothing else would end it-might resolve to possible to do otherwise. The Crown had no stand by the King in this dilemma, and exconfidential advisers in the House to make pose himself to all the difficulties of the situa known its resolutions. A conflict had taken tion, for the purpose of protecting his Sove place between the Crown and its confidential reign. That appears to me to have been the advisers, and therefore at present the King course, and that the noble Duke would not had no confidential advisers. The King interfere to give his advice to the King till did not choose to comply with the advice the King sent for him. I will say one word his servants had given, and the Ministers as to the necessity of such a resolution as was had resigned. 1 ask the House to con- come to by his Majesty's Ministers. If the sider what is the situation of the King Ministers of the Crown had waited, they when his Ministers have resigned. These might have ascertained, in 48 hours after the scruples deserve some respect, and when the peers had given their vote, whether it was the House recollected the persecution which those intention of the peers by that vote to defeat were exposed to out of doors and in that the bill, or whether they meant to vote for the House who entertained these scruples, it was whole disfranchisement of schedule A. Upextraordinary that anybody should be found wards of one half of the peers who voted to give advice to the Crown. The act was not against the Ministers stated their intention of done under ordinary circumstances, for every voting for schedule A. Now schedule A was man must be aware of the excessive excite- the key-stone of the bill; and when that was ment which pervades the country. It might the case, could the King not say, "The time be fairly supposed that no man would go to is not arrived when I can be called on to exthe Sovereign, but that the Sovereign would ercise my prerogative: do not come to me call upon some person to give him advice in with a vague report of what the peers may the dilemma in which he is placed. I sup-do; put their intentions to the test wait 48 pose I do not know what passed, but I suppose hours, and see if they will vote for schedule that the King might have called for some A." It should be recollected that the bill was person, and might have said to him, "Since safe in the Ministers' hands after the vote of I found that the Government could not be the peers. It could always be reinstated if otherwise carried on, I made a pledge to my injured, and it was the same as if the bill people, which I will not give up, but at the were actually in danger. I shall state fairly same time, I am so placed, that I cannot ad- that I have had many opportunities of knowmit, according to the constitution, that the ing the opinions of the opposition peers, and other branch of the legislature should be I shall mention what I know of their opinions forced to agree with the Commons unless of schedule A. One of those peers, who had some very strong case should arise, and I do a principal hand in managing the opposition not see that any case has yet arisen in which to the bill, told me, that he had no doubt that I can fairly be called on to interfere." Sup-the peers would pass the whole of schedule A. pose the Duke of Wellington was the person "My opinion is (said he), after making my so called upon-he says, "I cannot help my-calculation-I will mention no names-my self, I do not admit the principles of this bill, opinion is, that there will not be twenty votes but am I therefore, as a consequence of that, against schedule A.” (Hear.) That was before to treat the King's commands with neglect, the question between the King and his Miand refuse to pass the bill; or am I to advise nisters had become the subject of public him to pass the bill, and support the King, in notice; and it was told me by one of the noble advising what all admit to be the greatest Lords who was undertaking the opposition to violence to the constitution?" I doubt not but the bill. The measure then proposed by the the noble Duke might have come to some Ministers was only to be resorted to in extreme such conclusion; and what man can doubt cases; but there were no circumstances to the honesty and integrity of the noble Duke, justify such a measure, and the Ministers or throw any suspicions on his consistency? would not wait 48 hours to put to the test the I do not, any more than I doubt that the opinions of the peers. The noble Lord said, noble Duke possesses much of that courage he feared that there was no hope of accommowhich enables a man to resist taunts, and dating these differences. I have had long exsneers, and sarcasms. (Cheers and laughter.) perience in this House, and I never once saw Against such sneers and sarcasms I shall sup-a case in which the constitution was exposed port my opinion; and I have no doubt that the noble Duke would have courage to meet such sarcasms, and support the King in that to hazard, when the whole body of the landed gentlemen did not interfere as mediators, and bring out some understanding on the matter. Lord EBRINGTON said a few words, which were not audible in the gallery. The noble Lord says, or at least his words, I life, the best thing I should desire would be, think, bear that construction, that he should to form part of au administration to succeed be glad if anything could be done to give an the present Ministers. (Hear, bear.) We have approach even to such a proposal; and that if heard much of the blessings to be derived the peers would vote schedule A, that might from this bill. But when the disappointment induce the Ministers of the Crown to relax in comes, that will give any succeeding admitheir determination, and not to advise that nistration which may want it an easy which they only thought a less evil than not triumph; if any man-for example, my right risking the measure. I should think myself, hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel)-who finds it as difthat if Lord Grey goes back to the King, and ficult to keep out of office as ordinary persons LE stating his unwillingness to employ those find it to thrust themselves in, were ever so means which he had already admitted he en- desirous of power, and possessed even of a tertained a great repugnance to perform, aud grain of common sense, he could not wish to stating that he expected, with great probability, get into place at this crisis. I shall state, that the Lords would not differ from him, ex-that individuals might with advantage try to cept as to the details of the bill-if Lord Grey diminish the breach between the Crown and would so state to the King, I see no difficulty its Ministers; and I am not without hopes, of the Ministers again taking their places.from what fell from the noble Lord, that some (Hear, hear.) I do not see any objection to communication would be made to his Mathis. (Hear, and laughter.) It is with entire jesty, that his Majesty might be relieved from sincerity that I state this. I say that I wish that which he so much deprecated, and which not to interfere in any administration, and was known by one word-swamping the Peers. particularly in an administration formed It is not possible to deny that the bill may under the very difficult circumstances in which pass, that schedule A may receive the assent the country is now placed. To me, who never of the peers; and if the peers do not refuse to wished for public life, it would be a fatal thing, pass schedule A, there is nothing to justify the and nothing but the most urgent necessity Ministers in giving up. I find myself in a should ever tempt me to take office in any peculiar situation, and I make this statement shape. The hon. Gentlemen whom I followed to the house with perfect sincerity; and if I for twenty-five years, know that I never asked could assist in bringing about a settlement them for any place whatever. (Hear, hear.) 1 without any injury to the constitution, I can shall not, therefore, be thought a person ready assure the house that it would be one of the to do anything rash or base for the purpose of happiest moments of my life. (Cheers.) obtaining place. (Hear, hear.) I shall state, that it would be with the very greatest reluctance that I should undertake any office, and Sir FRANCIS BURDETT had heard with great that reluctance, great at any time, must be satisfaction what had fallen from the honourdoubly great at undertaking it when I know, able Gentleman. He acknowledged that the instead of having the house of Commons at hon. Gentleman had given an opinion to my command, what opposition I should meet which he attached great weight, and that what with, making it a place of the greatest diffi- he said was the usual mode of proceeding culty. At the same time, feeling the strength under ordinary circumstances. Nobody felt of my cause feeling, in fact, that I ought not more strongly than he did those unpleasant to abandon the King-there is no peril, no circumstances; but that they had arrived was danger, no difficulty, I would not encounter,and not the fault in the least of his Majesty's Minothing I would not undertake, which I thought nisters. They were placed in a situation in conscientiously it was my duty, as an honest which he must say they could do no otherwise. man, to undertake. (Cheers.) But, as I said Of all the duties of public men, none was before, it would be much for the good of the more imperative than that of preserving their country if the present administration were not character and honour, for, without preserving dissolved. That they should quit office would them, they could not be of service to the pubbe one of the greatest calamities possible. lic. He did not doubt his Majesty's good inWhen the bill should be passed (cheers), tentions nor the candour of the royal miud, which has excited so many expectations in the neither did he doubt that his Majesty was country (hear, bear), it was expected, as the placed in circumstances of exceeding diffiresult, as he learned from the canvas going culty; and not doubting either the candour of on for the county of Kent, that it would lead the royal mind nor the difficulty of the Royal to some great blessings. It would be very un-situation, he was sure, if his Majesty found it fortunate for the Government which should be in office, when the expectations of the great advantages raised by this bill-the extreme anticipations-shall be disappointed. (Hear, hear.) The public will then say, that if the reform Government had remained in something more would have been given to us. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Hunt.) If I were looking to public life-and I am looking only to retirement-but if I were looking to public difficult to decide, he must also be sensible of the difficult circumstances of his Ministers; and he could not be astonished that they should have resigned, nor could he find in their having done so any cause of complaint. Under these circumstances, he trusted and hoped that means would be found of procuring the success of that bill, without any useless discussion, when, under the circumstances of the country, its final success was inevitable. He could not see anything which should de- His Majesty could take no step by himself stroy his hopes. The Royal mind was open and unadvised. His Majesty did nothing to reason. The King had no private views; without the advice of his Ministers. The he never had any. He had always said to his Sovereign was not responsible, but his Ministers, Do what you think right, without public servants were responsible for the conconsidering me; do what is for the good of sequences of every change. The noble Lord the country, and let that be your only guide. (Ebrington) had justly said that the conduct The King wished nothing but the prosperity of the Lords in not passing the bill had caused of the people; and only thought how their great inconvenience-in his opinion they had benefit might be promoted. He was sorry to risked the safety and tranquillity of the counsee such a Sovereign deprived, by a misap- try. These were the sentiments of the whole prehension, of the affections of his people, to nation; there was hardly one who was not which he was altogether entitled. The hon. satisfied that the Lords had by their conduct Gentleman, who had just sat down, said that stopped the progress of all public business, the Duke of Wellington considered himself and interrupted the whole course of legislation. called upon, at the sacrifice of some part of his He had always maintained the propriety of high character, in the dilemma in which the that old portion of the prerogative, which country was placed, to give some advice re- gave his Majesty the power of issuing writs to quired by his regard for the public safety, some places which were increasing in imwhich he otherwise did not approve of. That portance, and of not issuing writs to noble Duke was solicitous for the public good. places which had fallen into decay. He beIf, then, there were other persons of a differ- lieved that portion of the prerogative to have ent disposition, low and factious intriguers, been highly necessary; and if it had been who had interfered between the nation and the continued in exercise, he was confident the Crown, the nation would know how to treat two Houses of Parliament would not have got them. They were not answerable for the into that state in which they now found themConsequences, for they were unknown. Men selves. That power was, however, now denied owed their first allegiance to themselves, and to the Crown; and he saw much to regret in it was impossible for Lord Grey to submit to the denial. He was not aware that it would have his bill taken out of his hands by the be an illegal exercise of the prerogative. He House of Lords without resigning, and pre-knew not the act or the statute in which the serve that high sense of honour which was interdiction was to be found; but supposing due to himself. Whatever might be said of the general feeling, from one cause or another, the factious band of the House of Lords to be against its exercise, then he would ask (order, and cheers), they, it must be allowed, in what way were they to escape from a difif they were not factious, were the most ficulty such as that in which they found short-sighted men that ever existed, to risk themselves, unless by having recourse to the the tranquillity of the country, and every- old prerogative of creating peers. If no other thing that ought to be dear to them, in way could be found, then he would maintain order to preserve their own peculiar privi- that the prerogative would be justly and proleges, which were hostile to the welfare perly exercised in the creation of new peers, of the people. (Hear, hear, hear.) The rather than run the risk of throwing the honourable Gentleman said, that there was no country into confusion. (Hear.) There doubt that the Lords would have adopted was one thing connected with the present schedule A; and the honourable Gentleman position of affairs to which he wished shortly said, very properly, that it was one of the to allude. A judge, one of the highest in principles of the bill. The right honoura- the land, a criminal judge of the most emible Baronet, too (Sir Robert Peel), had ad- nent station, had appeared on all occasions as Imitted that it was one of the principles of a violent politician. (Hear.) He would conthe bill; and if the Lords would have con- tend that a judge, and still more a criminal Isented to that, as was stated, how easily judge, should hold himself utterly cut off from might all these difficulties have been avoided! | politics, and from the conflicts of party. He Let it, however, be remembered that the would suppose this noble person sitting on the Duke of Wellington concurred in the vote for bench, adininistering justice; he would suppostponing schedule A; and if he were now pose that a stranger entered the noble Lord's convinced that the bill must be passed, he had court in the morning, and that he saw much shown, at least, such a want of foresight, as reason to admire the calm dignity and selfdid not entitle him to claim to direct the possession with which the noble Baron dis councils of the country, under the present pensed justice to the suitors. What, he would difficult circumstances. If the Duke of Wel- ask, would that same stranger have said, had lington were Prime Minister, it would not he he seen the noble Baron in the evening? sufficient to say that he would pass the (Hear.) How much surprised would be not bill-an investigation must take place into have been to see the noble Baron turned into all the circumstances which had occurred. a political partisan, and heading in the House He looked upon the Duke of Wellington of Lords a violent and virulent faction? as answerable from his accession to office, and responsible for all the consequences which might follow. (No, no! laughter.) (Hear.) Lord STORMONT rose, amid some confusion and cries of "Order," and "Bar," to remind the hon. Bart. that he was outstepping and a laugh)—who seemed to have under his the ordinary rules of debate. He would ask legal robes the motley dress of a harlequinthe right hon. Gentleman in the chair whether (hear, hear, and a laugh)—a man, in short, the mention of the members of the other who was everything and every pe son-who House had not, in all cases, been held sacred. seemed to be all mankind's epitome-(a laugh) He would put it to the right hon. Gentleman and who was in expectance, by his maneuwhether such a use of the word faction was vres, of reaching the very highest office in the not unparliamentary in that House, and whe-state. This is what he had bee speaking of ther it had not always been the wish, as well as an event to be deplored. (Hear, hear.) t as the practice, of its members to avoid apply-There seemed, however, to be a rumour, a ting to the members of the other House ex- sort of miscreated rumour (hear, and a laugh), pressions which they would regard as a viola-that an administration under such circumtion of privilege, if applied to the members of :the Commons. The SPEAKER, thus called on, said, that if the hon. Bart. was putting a case hypothetically, and adhered to his hypothesis, he could not be pronounced out of order; but it certainly would be disorderly to draw a picture of what the hon. Bart. believed to have occurred. The hon. Bart. was out of order, in his opinion, if he applied to the members of the other House expressions which would not have been consistent with the courtesies of the House if applied to the members of the House of Com mons. Sir F. BURDETT said he was not aware of having said anything disorderly. He was merely talking of a disease, to which, he believed, the members of both Houses were Eequally liable (cheers); and, he repeated, he was not aware that he had violated the order of the House by alluding to it. The SPEAKER interrupted the hon. Baronet, and observed that he had permitted the expressions originally to pass unnoticed, because he believed them to have been uttered in the warmth of debate; but it by no means followed that because he had allowed the disorderly expressions to pass unnoticed once, that he was to continue to do so ever after. (Hear, hear.) To ascribe inotives, was, at all times, I disorderly; and nothing could be more so than to speak of a member of the other House as the leader of a faction. Called on as he had been, he could not avoid interfering, and if he had not done so before, it was because he believed the words to have been spoken inadvertently, in the heat of debate, and he wished to let them pass, lest, like many other things of the same description, they should derive an importance from being noticed, which would not otherwise attach to them. (Hear, hear, hear.) Sir F. BURDETT resumed, and observed, that he had been anxious to avoid all appearance of warmth on the occasion. He was merely speaking of that which he thought he had a right, nay that it was his duty, to mention-the conduct of a judge. (Hear, hear.) He was speaking, as it was his duty to do, of the effect of intrigues, he knew not by whom carried on; and among the other misfortunes of their situation, he had alluded to a judge. He did not call him the leader of a faction, but the leader of a party-the maker and unmaker of administrations-(hear, hear)—a man who was seen everywhere—(hear, hear, stances and auspices could not be formed, and if anything was to happen in the present state of the country, such was the coudition to which they were reduced, that it was hard to know to whom, in such a case, the King was to apply. This, then, was the situation to which they were reduced by the unfortunate opposition to the bill. Those who had been thus far so successful seemed, however, to be frightened at their own work. He might say, in the language of the Poet "For 'tis the sport to have the engineer, Heist with his own petar" (cheers); and it should rejoice all those who were friendly to reform to see its opponents undone by the fulfilment of their wishes. (Hear, hear.) (To be continued.) From the LONDON GAZETTE, FRIDAY, MAY 11, 1832. WHEELER, G., late of Acre-lane, Clapham, BANKRUPTS. AGLIO, A., Smedley, dealer and chapman. BEARD, J., Pool Quay, Montgomeryshire, wharfinger. BENNETT, W., Lostock, Lancashire, cotton- CORRICK, A. S., Bristol, timber-merchant. FRANCIS, T., late of Liverpool, builder. HENSON, W., Worcester, lace-manufacturer. JACKSON, T., Old George-street, Southwark, KENTON, J., High-st., Poplar, linen-draper. |