the whole he thought, that Scotland, where the great body of the people had the same manners and habits with the people of this country, should not be exempted from a burden which this country was to bear. With regard to the number of men that would come forward to be disciplined; he was not very sanguine on that point. It would be a material drawback with many, to consider that they were liable to be drafted into any regular regiment, for an unlimited period, as might happen to be the case under the bill.

Colonel Eyre considered, that for a permanent military arrangement, there was too much of severity in this system. The people of England were ready to bear those hardships which appeared necessary, but not those burdens for which they could see no necessity. When there was a pressing danger, the volunteers appeared sufficient to meet it: and if there was any relaxation in their discipline, or deficiency in their numbers at the present time, it was merely because the danger was less urgent.

Mr. C. W. Wynne thought the provisions of the bill not applicable to Scotland at present. When it was now argued that this bill, by inflicting a fine, imposed a great burden on the people of England, he must beg leave to remind the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Yorke) who brought in the other bill, that that was supported merely by argu ments on what was called the undoubted prerogative of the Crown, and that there were no means given of escaping its operation, even upon the payment of a fine. It must, therefore, evidently appear, that the former bill was a greater burden imposed upon the people of England. An honourable gentleman was mistaken who supposed, that because the fines were remitted which were due in consequence of the parish bill, that therefore the fines must be remitted which would become due under this bill. The reason that the fines were remitted to the parishes on the former bill was, that it was conceived unjust that they should be fined for not raising men, when it was impossible that they could have raised them. Nobody, however, would say, that there was any impossibility to prevent the service of those who should be balloted under the present bill.

Lord Binning thought that whatever there was of good or of evil in the present bill, should be extended as well to Scotland as to England. He did not like a gratuitous and unnecessary distinction between one part of Great Britain and the other. He thought the principle of the present bill

3A2

was

was generally applicable to Scotland, for there was not more than a fourth of the whole population of that country under the circumstances which were stated as an objection. There were several parts of England and Wales that lay open to the same objection; but he did not see why the whole of Scotland should be exempted on account of the circumstances of a part. As to the volunteers of Scotland, they were entitled to every degree of praise, but, at the same time, he thought that equal credit was due to the volunteers of England, and therefore that the argument founded on a distinction between them was entitled to little weight.

Dr. Matthews was of opinion, that the experiment would completely fail, and therefore it was not of much conse quence on what scale it was tried.

Mr. Huskisson perceived a great inconsistency in the arguments of the supporters of the bill. At one time, they spoke of it as an experiment, which, in another year, might be extended to Scotland; and, at another time, they spoke of it as inapplicable to Scotland, on account of the smallness of its population. This last objection had no sort of connection with the former; for whether the experiment succeeded in England, or whether it failed, the mountains of Scotland would not disappear, and the highlands would remain just as they are. As to the argument of freeing Scots land from the burden on account of the number of the vo lunteer corps, he must observe, that the more volunteer corps were scattered over the country, the less would be the pressure. If there were fewer corps in England, of course it was more difficult for men to escape the operation of this act, by entering into them, as men could not in every part of the country find a volunteer corps to join. There was another argument which had been stated, but which he could by no means assent to. The mover of the bill supposed, that there was great dissatisfaction in Scotland about the militia. He would confidently assert, that, although there might have been some ferment in 1797, when the militia was first introduced in Scotland, yet at the present day there was no dissatisfaction upon that subject.

Mr. Calvert thought that the great advantage would be rather in the enrolling the men, than in the training of them. As to the enrolment, he could see no reason why that should not take place in Scotland; and as to the training, that was a thing which might or might not be acted on, according to the circumstances of the country.

Mr.

Mr. Windham said, it appeared to him that it was a scrious objection to bringing on a measure which would affect Scotland so much, at a period when a great number of the Scotch members had gone home, and were at such a distance that it could not be expected they would return to be present at the discussion. He could not allow that the fine proposed was any burden at all, as it was only a commutation for a duty which it was allowed by every body that the country had a right to call for. If this duty were performed, there would be no fine, and if any man wished to exempt himself from performing this duty by paying the fine, he certainly could have nothing to complain of. If he had not proposed a greater fine, the reason was, that he really hoped that the bill would be efficient, and that a number of men, even of a better description (to whom the shilling a day would be no object) would, by their personal service, set an example to their neighbours, and shew that they conceived it no disgrace to come forward and receive that degree of instruction which would be necessary to enable them to defend their country if it should be invaded. In describing the awkwardness of serving personally, an honourable gentleman (Mr. Spencer Stanhope) had rather clumsily expressed himself on a former night, when he spoke of the embarrassing situation of a man standing in the ranks between his own groom and his father's chimney-sweep. Now, if a gentleman was obliged to stand in the ranks next to a chimneysweep, he did not see how it made the matter worse that it was his father's chimney-sweep (a laugh). All this awkwardness would, however, be done away by the present bill, for if the gentleman did not chuse to enter a volunteer corps, he might still be exempted on paying his fine of 51.

Mr. Yorke thought it his duty to take the sense of the House upon the present question. The question was not merely about extending a new experiment to Scotland, but it was whether Scotland should be exempted from what it was now liable to by the existing law (the levy-en-masse act); and whether it should be free from a burden which England was called upon to bear. As to the difference be tween Scotch and English volunteers, he trusted the right honourable gentleman did not mean to rest on such an invidious distinction. The question then was merely whether Scotland should be exempted because a part of that country was thinly inhabited? He could not allow that there was any other objection; for, at the time that he was in administration,

nistration, and had the honour to bring in the former bill, he never had heard a single word of objection from any Scotch member, on the ground of its producing dissatisfaction. Under that bill there was a complete return of the enrolling in Scotland, and he therefore saw no reason why the men who were ready to be enrolled, should not also be trained. As to the thinness of population in certain districts, that ought to be no objection. The bill should be made general, and there might be clauses which would confine its operation in districts where there were any local objections. As to the late period of the session, that could not be relied upon by the right honourable gentleman as an argument, as several months had elapsed since his opening speech, and he had had time sufficient to have brought in the bill perfect.

Mr. Ryder observed, that there were many parts of the Highlands of Scotland, particularly in the counties of Dumbarton and Perth, which were more populous than Wales, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and many parts of England, in which the bill was to operate. As to the lowlands, he conceived them to be exactly in the same situation as England, and that there was no reason why they should be free from this burden.

After a few words from Mr. Wynne in explanation, the committee divided, for Mr. Yorke's amendment,

Majority

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76

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On a subsequent clause of the bill respecting the numbers to be enrolled,

Mr. Yorke moved, as an amendment, that these words. should be added, "regard being had to the number of volunteers enrolled and actually serving." He considered that the appointment ought to be directed now, as on former occasions, by the number of volunteers. For instance, if Lancashire had 18,000 volunteers, and Yorkshire, which was a much larger county, had but 10,000 he thought that regard should be had to that circumstance, in the apportionment of the number of men for which these counties should be called on.

Mr. C. W. Wynne did not think that the appointment ought to go by districts. The individuals who were in volunteer corps were not liable to be called upon in this force; but he did not see why persons who were not in volunteer

corps

corps should claim any advantage merely because their neighbours were volunteers.

Lord Castlereagh thought, that in the apportionment each county and each parish should have credit for the gross number of volunteers they furnished, and that a parish that had most of its population engaged in the volunteer service, ought not to be called upon.

Mr. Windham allowed, that it would be a sufficient answer to the call, if a parish could shew that those who were liable were serving in another description of force.

Lord Castlereagh replied, that if such was the right honourable gentleman's opinion, he was at a loss to conceive what was the object of his bill. He had always understood it, that he wished to raise 200,000 men in England, exclusive of the volunteers, but now it appeared possible, that the bill would not raise a single man.

After a few observations from Mr. Perceval and Sir James Pulteney,

Mr. Windham replied, that he did not absolutely undertake that the bill should raise 200,000 men, for if the men who were called upon by ballot to serve should be actually serving in another way, the intention of the bill would be answered as well.

Mr. Perceval then said, that it was possible that the ballot for those 200,000 men might fall upon part of the 300,000 volunteers; who being exempt, not a man would be raised.

Mr. Yorke thought, that between the volunteers who should be balloted, and the men who would pay their fine of 51. the measure was not likely to be efficient.

Mr. Windham thought that this was supposing an extreme and improbable case. It could not be supposed that the ballot would fall entirely on volunteers, and persons disposed to pay the fine. The ballot would be from the lists of those liable to serve in the militia. The volunteers, of course, were not in that list..

Mr. Yorke replied, that the volunteers certainly were upon that list, and liable to be balloted for, although they were afterwards exempted from serving. He complained of the manner the House was treated on the present occasion. They were referred upon this bill to the schedule of another bill, which was to come on after this was disposed of (he alluded to the militia act, which directs the returns that are

to