further India papers, in defence of Marquis Wellesle which were ordered.

Lord Henry Petty moved the usual allowances, at the end of every session, to the chairman of the ways and means, the principal and assistant clerks, the serjeant at arms, and clerk of the journals, which were agreed to.

PUBLIC DEBT.

Mr. Johnstone moved the order of the day for resuming the debate upon the subject of the public debt, which or der being read,

Mr. Johnstone observed, that the resolutions which he had to move upon this subject differed so little from the state of the public debt, as laid down by the noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, and agreed so closely with his statemen's in all the general results, that it was hardly worth troubling the House by going into a minute detail upon the subject. There were, however, ene or two points which called for ob-ervation. On the commencement of the present war, a hope had been pretty strongly stated on the other side of the House, by an honourable gentleman, that the war might be carried on without any new increase of the public debt; and yet it now appeared, that notwithstanding the ample increase of revenite which had been voted as war-taxes, and the new heavy burthens imposed upon the country, the public debt had been increased seventy millions within the last four years, although the product of the war-taxes within that time had exceeded their estimates by two millions. He did not wish to expatiate farther upon this subject now, in the absence of the honourable gentleman (Mr. Vansittart) who had held ou to the House and to the country this flattering hope, which he (Mr. Johnstone) foresaw at the time was not likely to be verified. Another subject for observation was, that, netwithstanding the productive success of the war-taxes, and the very advantageous loans that had been made since the commencement of the present war, yet com aring the four years of the present war with the four last years of the preceding, it would appear, that the loans made in both were very nearly equal; for in the former the sums borrowed in four years was sixty-nine millions, and in the latter sixtyseven millions, while the quantity of stock at market remained still pretty much the same. Mr. Johnstone then proceeded to move his resolutions; the first of which was,

that

that the public debt of the nation, on the 1st of March 1803, was 567,008,9177.

Lord Henry Petty felt it unnecessary to say any thing. on the subject of the general resolutions of the honourable gentleman, as they so nearly accorded with the statement he had himself made; and with respect to the accumulation of the public debt, in consequence of the exceedings of the warexpences beyond what was originally conjectured, he had only to say, that it must have been impossible to state more than mere conjecture as to what might be the probable expences of a war, in the outset of which the possible chances and events, and consequently the true expence of which, it must be impossible for human foresight to calcu late upon any scale of accuracy: added to this, however accurate such calculations might be, they must be founded upon the rate of things as they stood at the time; but every one must know, that by the extraordinary and unexpected rise upon every necessary of life, and almost every article of supply since that time, and the total change of character the war had assumed, especially in the late unfortunate campaign upon the continent, expences had accrued to an extent which it was equally impossible, in the outset, for human wisdom to foresee or to avoid.

Dr. Laurence made a few observations to the same cffect, and said the objections of the honourable gentleman would be best answered by the reply quoted in a classic author upon a similar occasion, "that war was a devour- ́ ing animal, and would be restrained by no prescribed regimen."

Lord Henry Petty then moved to postpone till MondayTM the further consideration of the remaining resolutions.

INDIA AFFAIRS.

The House having gone into the committee for the further examination of the Indian accounts,

Mr. Tyrwhit Jones put a question to Lord Morpeth, about a balance of 600,0007. due to the company on the part of government.

Lord Morpeth referred to his former statements.

Mr. Johnstone stated, that by the report of the commissioners appointed to examine the claims of the company on government, it appeared that two millions and a half were When due to the company. Two millions had since been paid by government, but the remaining half-million appeared still unaccounted for.

11

Mr.

Mr. Jones said, that he was not present at the statement of the noble lord (Morpeth), which he regretted much, as he understood it was very clear and perspicuous, but he wished to know whether the company's accounts were settled or not? He then put several questions to the noble lord, respecting various points of his statements.

Dr. Laurence spoke to order. He thought it contrary to the rules of the House, that, when the question for their determination was only respecting a single year, any member should think himself at liberty to ask all manner of questions. When the debate was disposed of, he certainly might find opportunities enough of asking the noble lord any questions he might think proper.

Mr. Hobhouse (the chairman of the committee), considered that it was the custom upon India budgets, for the member who brought them forward, to take a very wide range into the general situation of the affairs of India, preparatory to moving his first resolution, and that therefore it was allowed to other members, to take a considerable latitude in speaking upon that question. As to the right of asking questions, he believed the rule was this: every member had a right to put questions, but the person to whom they were put, might answer them or not as he thought pro

per.

Mr. Jones said, that if the learned doctor wished to make a speech upon the subject himself, he should sit down with pleasure. He was prepared to meet him on every point which he had stated, and as the learned doctor was so full of brevity, the House would no doubt be very much delighted with hearing him. If this was not the proper time to put his questions, he should take another opportunity.

Dr. Laurence said, he might take whatever opportunity he pleased, and he need not expect that he would meet him on any of his points.

Mr. Paull considered that the statement of the noble lord (Morpeth) was the only full and honest statement the country had had of the affairs of India from any minister for the last twenty-two years. He contended, that the deficits of the years 1804 and 1805, amounting to six millions, together with a loan of four millions, would make it necessary to raise ten millions in the course of 1807, to defray them. He wished that an honourable gentleman, (Mr. Johnstone) had, instead of directing his mind to the VOL. III. 1805-6.

4 X

general

general finances of the country, rather confined his attention to the affairs of India, with which he was so well acquainted. He would have done the country more service in giving his information on the financial situation of the company, than in bringing violent charges against his Majesty's ministers for having (most properly, as he thought) recalled Sir George Barlow from India. He was sure that it was never before considered, either in Europe or in India, that Sir George Barlow was fit for any thing more than the temporary government of India. He thought the governor-gen.ral ought to be a man of rank and character in this country, and not a servant of the company, and that his Majesty's ministers acted perfectly right in recalling him. Afer paying high compliments to administration and the noble lord (Lord Morpeth) for laying the first honest account of the finances of India before Parliament, he pointed out some particulars in which he thought the statements were erroneous.

Lord Castlereagh expressed some surprise at the patience with which the hon. and learned gentleman (Dr. Laurence) Estened to this discussion about Sir George Barlow, and to the compliments paid to ministers, without thinking it necessary to speak to order, especially as he had ade a speech of two hours and a half in length, on a former night, in which, no doubt, he never wandered in the smallest degree from the point then before the House.

Mr. T. Jones hoped that he would not be thought pertinacious, but he wished to be allowed to make a few observations, as he stood pledged in some degree to the House on this subject. He had, in 1801, stated that the debt of the company was 20 millions. This had now clearly turned out to be the fact. He had then met with

a great deal of opprobrium, and was asked to have patience, He had leid patience, and the result was, that the com'; any, as had been stated by an honourable alderman (Prinsep), was on the eve of bankruptcy, and that their debt was nearer 40 millions than 50. He was therefore fully justified in what he had said, and the persons at the India board, whether they were called comptrollers, or any thing else, wold soon, it appeared, be only the assignees of bankrupts.

Mr. Johnstone said, that there was no danger of a bankruptcy. He would not enter upon the particulars of he accounts, however, as it was painful to him to look at the 8

situation

situation of the company. But that situation was still not so gloomy as it had been represented by the honourable gentleman. As to the loans, he hoped the persons who held them would renew their engagements. But he depres cated the transferring them to this country, and warned the directors not to ask such a thing of Parliament, for the minister of the day would be strongly tempted to grasp at a share of the patronage, which would be dangerous to the liberties of this country. He begged the House to consider what would be the consequence of a patronage over 3,000,000l. sterling, in addition to what was already possessed by the government. Any inconvenience of trade was better than that the minister should acquire such an extraordinary power. He meant this as no particular reflection, but mentioned it as applying to any minister. As to the case of Sir George Barlow, his opinion was unaltered. Even though what the honourable gentleman (Mr. Paull) had said should be correct, still his observations were proper. Ministers had gratuitously appointed him on the 26th of February, and removed him 14 days after. Now, why was he appointed at all, if it was in contemplation to remove him so soon? All the powers of governorgeneral would have remained with him by devolution till the appointment of a successor, except the power of exercising the highest functions of the office without the consent of the council-a power so extraordinary, that it had never been exercised. The charge therefore remained in full force.

Sir Arthur Wellesley observed, that the loans which the honourable gentleman (Mr. Paull) stated would become due in 1807, would, in fact, not be due till 1809-10. In the Mahratta war, the expences had been great, but the services had also been great, and in no instance was there so much service at less expence. The sinking fund in India had had great efficacy in keeping down the discount on the government securities, and in enabling the company to obtain loans at low interest, and in fact they had of late obtained them at 8 per cent.

Mr. Paull observed, that they had not obtained them at less than 14 per cent. and accounted for the honourable general's mistake, by stating that more than two-thirds of the loans were made at Lucknow and Benares, and the security given on the Calcutta rupees, which were of a