several years they had lent the sum of five millions, and of this sum the bank althree millions without interest; and, upon lowed government three millions (more the whole, taking other items into account, than the half), in the shape of a loan he thought himself justified in estimating, without interest. Besides this, it had that a sum of between seven and eight agreed to lend government six millions of millions had been paid by the bank to the exchequer bills at 4 per cent., which was public since the last renewalof the charter. in fact equivalent to a loan of 1,200,0001. Whether in 1808 it was or was not a pro- without interest ; so that out of the five per compensation that was given by the millions of extraordinary balances, the bank for the deposits of public money, he public got 4,200,000l. without interest : would not now consider ; but unquestion and this was the whole amount of that ably it was a bargain, understood to last outrageous bargain which the bank had during the continuance of the charter. got. His main objection to the motion He would not now speak at any length of arose from the exaggeration with which the general facilities afforded by the bank to it was prefaced, and the sort of spirit with government: one of these, however, that it which it was proposed. Besides, nothing gave a silver currency at present, to the new could be discovered by a committee; whole country solely at its own expense, the whole could only turn on the amount and which was likely, when replaced, to be of the balances, and for these we either attended with much additional expense. had or were about to have, the necessary

The bank had also, at very critical periods of accounts on the table. In fact, he thought the Peninsular war, furnished government the late bargain one of rather considerable with considerablesumsin guineas, at the rate hardship to the bank, as the balances must oftwenty-one shillingseach, which, if neces- necessarily decline in peace. sity had compelled their purchase in other Mr. Tierney said, he would trespass but quarters, could not have been obtained a few moments on the attention of the without a considerable sacrifice. He House. He would not detain them by would add also, that by its charter the going into any details, in which he should bank was entitled to be the depository of do more harm than good, for he was quite the public balances ; nor was it then un- sure that a more clear statement Dever derstood, in the ordinary times of peace, had been laid before a British parliato be under any obligation to give a com- ment, than that of his hon. friend who pensation to the public. It was true that made the motion; and therefore if in government, by its own arrangements, any degree he should attempt to might have greatly reduced these ba- follow him, he would only be liable to lances, but it would not have obtained the imputation of weakening what had alequivalent safety and facility. He denied ready been so ably stated. All that had the assertion of his hon. friend, that the been urged by the chancellor of the exbalances kept in the bank could produce chequer were only so many grounds for to it any thing like an interest of 5 per going into a committee. Whether the cent. These balances were fluctuating in right hon. gentleman or his hon. friend their nature, and could not, the moment were right or wrong it was not for him to they were deposited, be profitably em- know. A sum was stated which might be ployed. Speaking as a merchant, he ne- saved to the public--this was enough to ver gave more than four per cent. for any call for the investigation of a committee ; money that might casually be placed in for whatever expense was saved was some his hands. Whatever might be the case thing taken from the amount of our taxa in the country, he knew no banker in tion. The question divided itself into two London who allowed any interest for the branches ; first, The management of the balances in his hands; the bankers who had national debt : secondly. The balances in set out upon another principle had failed, the hands of the bank, As to the first, and he should not be fond of depositing the chancellor of the exchequer had anhis money with any banker who allowed swered, that there was a difficulty arising interest.' The fair question then was, from the charter. But this again was dewhat was the amount of the extraordinary nied by as good an authority, the chairbalances created by the war expenditure man of the finance committee (Mr. for he conceived that the bank by its Bankes). At the recommendation of the charter, was entitled to the advantage of committee, the act of 1791 had been althe ordinary balances. He reckoned the tered, and it would be an extraordinary extraordinary balances at little more than circumstance indeed, if in 1816 they could

not exercise the same authority over an observed in a late able pamphlet on this act passed only eight years before, as had subject, the bank appeared to consider been done in 1808, over an act passed so the rule by which they are to measure the long before as 1791. This was a reason moderation of their charge to be the sav. for going into a committee; and whether ing which they effect to their employer, such was or was not the case, the report rather than a just compensation for their of the committee would be satisfactory. .own troubie. What, added the writes The chancellor had asserted, that some would they think of an engineer, if, in his thing conclusive had been arranged in charge for the construction of a steam en1808; but here again he referred to another gine, he should be guided by the value of authority, which he thought rather better the labour which the engine was calcuthan his. The chancellor of the exchequer lated to save, and not by the value of the had a divided duty to perform. On the part labour and materials necessary to its conof the public he would be naturally desirous struction ? In his opinion, a stronger of making the best possible bargain ; but case for inquiry before a committee had it was to be recollected, also, that he was never been laid; seeing that the former a sort of middle man between the public inquiries had only partially investigated and the bank. He could hardly lose sight and partially remedied. of the many advantages he had derived Lord Casilereagh thought it his duty to from the bank, or avoid taking into consi- state the grounds on which he should rederation, out of how many difficulties the sist the motion. The question was, whebank had relieved him. It was for the ther or not any satisfactory reason had committee to consider whether the bar- been stated why the House should appoint gain was one which was proper and ad- a committee ? 'He was not satisfied with vantageous for the public. His hon. | the grounds on which the hon. gentleman friend who spoke last had alleged, that rested his motion. The hon. gentleman the profit in the balances was overstated; had preferred making a motion for a comfor no banker ever made the full amount mittee, to proposing to the House any speof interest on the balances in his handscific measure, and had thus got over the . never more than three-fourths. This difficulty in a very easy way; but the might be true with respect to private principle of parliament required that in bankers; but the case was altered, when such a case some specific measure should a body on a million being asked from be proposed. For the sake of the public them, had only to set down a million, and credit, it was necessary that the bank they could make the million. The depo- should be kept in a fourishing and indesits in the hands of the bank of the public pendent situation : now, it was plain that money, whether they were aware of it or any unnecessary inquiry into its affairs not, were an additional source of profit, at would be to its prejudice, aod, so far, to. the rate of five per cent. The bank were the prejudice of the country, by affecting

. certainly right in trying to make the best the public credit. One of the great chabargain they could; but the House on the racteristics of the bank of England. was, part of the public, were also entitled to make that government did not ioterfere in the the best bargain they could. The chan- management of its affairs. In 1808 there cellor of the exchequer had talked of the had been an inquiry into the general state moderation of their charge for the in- of the country, including the affairs of the „credible labour of no less than 110,000 public, with which the bank was connected. calculations necessary to be made in re- All the facts of the case, as between the ceiving the property-tax on dividends. public and the bank, had been as fully laid Now, he had learned at school that a di- before the House by the report of the vision by ten was one of the easiest opera. committee then appointed, as they could tions. But the right hon. gentleman add- possibly be by any committee now to be ed, that the same amount of calculations appointed. It only remained for the House made, by the usual collectors of taxes to consider whether, at present, the pubwould cost 55,0001. instead of the 30001. lic had a fair participation in the profits of

a charged by the bank, By-the-bye, if the the bank; and he thought that the apbank directors were thus collectors of the pointment of a committee was not neces. public money, they had no business in sary in order to enable the House to make that House - this, however, was a matter up its mind on this point. The great feain which he would not turn informer ture in the profits of the bank, at which the against them. But, as has been justly motion of the hop. gentleman aimed, was

a

that derived from the circulation of their that the present was a favourable oppornotes. On this subject he most strongly tunity for redeeming that pledge, and for deprecated parliament doing any thing to showing a disposition to inquire into every make a profit of what was to be considered possible mode of saving the public money. as a public calamity. If such a notion He said it was singular that the chancellor went forth as that parliament intended this, of the exchequer had so strenuously re

it would produce a most mischievous ef- probated, all coercion upon this subject, fect. This was clearly what the hon. gen. when he must be aware that not one step tleman pointed at, although in his expla- had been gained, since the first agitation nation he had qualified it by saying, that of this question, but by compulsion with he only meant the public to participate, in the bank of England. He contended upon ease the bank restriction act was made principle, in opposition to the noble lord, more permanent. Now, on this subject, that the public ought to participate in the he was clearly of opinion, that the only profits arising from the restriction upon security, which the public could have was, cash payments, as the only mode of that parliament on its behalf and as its re- compelling the bank to resume paypresentative, should have no interest in ments in specie, by lessening the advanthe continuance of that act. He was not tages they derived from withholding quite prepared to say that it would be a it. He had apprehended that the directors breach of faith with the bank to alter the would have been the first to move for a regulation of 1808 ; but that arrangement committee of inquiry, to show that their had been made with so much deliberation conduct was unimpeachable; they might and patient investigation of the subject, then have come out of the investigation that unless a very grave case of expedi- like their own gold, more pure from the ency was made out, it would not become furnace to which it had been exposed. It the House to alter it

. The noble lord then was the duty of the House, by adopting took a view of the benefits which the pub- the motion, to show that it lost no opporlic received from the bank. The annual tunity of affording relief from the burthens amount of its advances to the public was of taxation. 443,0001. The public received in all more

ore Mr. Manning said a few words strongly than one half of the total profits of the against the motion. He stated that, inbank: 280,0001. was all the charge made cluding all the responsibility and expenses, by the bank for the whole administration the bank only charged the public, for the of the public funds of the country, and it expense of managing the funds eightwas to be considered that the bank was pence in the 1001. the only establishment that could under- Mr. Grenfell, in reply, contended that take this.

the public balances of late in the hands of Mr. Ponsonby spoke shortly for the mo- the bank, were at least double what they tion. The inquiry for which his hon. friend were in the year 1808, or at any former wished was simply, whether in certain period, thus contradicting the assertion of dealings between government and the bank the noble secretary of state. of England, the latter gave a proper re:

The House then divided : muneration for the profits secured to it? For the motion ........ 44 How, then, could it be said that the pub- Against it ..... lic credit or the credit of the bank was im

Majority

-37 plicated by any such inquiry? In talking of the benefits which the public received CALL OP The House.] When the from the bank, it was to be considered, gallery was opened, the House was engaged that when the bank had originally agreed in a conversation upon the motion of Mr. to lend its capital to the public at 31. per Brougham, for a call of the House upon cent. it was abundantly compensated by a this day fortnight. provision, restraining any other corpora- The Chancellor of the E.cchequer acquicion from rivalling it or entering into any esced in the proposition for a call of the competition.

House, but rather preferred Friday week. · Mr. Mariyat adverted to the pledge of Mr. Ponsonby deemed it essentially neeconomy given from the throne at the cessary, upon the present extraordinary opening of the session, and subsequently state of public affairs, to have a call of the echoed from every dopartment of the ad- House, especially with a view to the due ministration. He trusted that it would consideration of the proposed military €8. not prove mere empty sound, and thought tablishment, and the renewal of the pre

a

.

......81

a

perty tax. But that call would be quite a Crown with a foreign power, in which mockery, if time were not afforded for the treaty sums of money were stipulated to attendance of members from Ireland for be paid to this country, in lieu of territoinstance, whence, through the uncertainty rial cessions, those sums amounting to no of winds, he himself found it impossible to less than 100 millions of francs, were not make his way to this country so soon as at the disposal of parliament, but belonged, his wish and his duty prompted. It was, of right, exclusively to the Crown, and besides, material to postpone the discus- could only be available to the public sersion of the subjects to which he had re- vice by a regrant from the Crown, through ferred until the call was enforced, for it its special grace and favour, he felt it his would be perfectly absurd to enforce that duty to call the attention of the House call after those subjects should have been to this subject, involving, as it did, condecided.

siderations of the highest constitutional Lord Castlereagh proposed to fix the importance, and forming a precedent' of call for Monday se'nnight, which would the most dangerous tendency. He wished, afford time enough to collect a full attend therefore, to ask the noble earl upon what ance from every quarter, excepting per- legal opinions, if any, the idea that these haps the extremities of the United King- sums belonged of right to the Crown, had dom, and that exception might, he said, been founded ; and, if there were any such not inconsistently be admitted.

opinions, it was his intention to move for Mr. Tierney hoped that the call would them, which motion, he trusted, would be enforced to the utmost practicable ex- not be objected to. Upon another topic tent, as a full attendance was peculiarly connected with this subject, he also wished desirable upon the discussion of the army for information; he alluded to the sum estimates, and the renewal of the pro- of 50 millions of francs which the French perty tax.

government had stipulated to pay for the Lord Castlereagh assured the House maintenance of our army in France. He that he was quite as anxious for a full at- wished to know whether this sum was to tendance as the right hon. gentleman be placed to the account of the army, could possibly be.

and thus come under the established conThe call was fixed for Monday se'n stitutional control of parliament, or whenight.

ther it was to be issued directly to our troops in France, without the intervention

of parliament; in which case a precedent HOUSE OF LORDS.

of the most dangerous nature would be Wednesday, February 14.

established, in withdrawing the military FRENCH CONTRIBUTIONS-DROITS OF force from the constitutional control of THE CROWN.). The Marquis of Lans- parliament, a control essential to the maindowne before his noble friend's motion tenance and support of those principles came on, seeing the noble earl at the upon which alone the constitution could bead of the treasury, in his place, wished long subsist. to ask him respecting a subject to which The Earl of Liverpool said, that he he alluded yesterday, and which involved had one difficulty in answering the noble questions of the highest constitutional im- marquis's questions, arising from this cir. portảnce. He referred to rumours that cumstance, that when questions and exhad gone forth respecting a statement planations were asked with reference to made out of that House, that the sums to any thing which could not be brought rebe paid by France, and which were se- gularly before their lordships, it was cured by the treaty with that power, be- hardly possible to understand the exact longed to the Crown, and were not at the nature of the grounds upon which the exdisposal of parliament, except through planation depended ; and this was more the special grace and favour of the Crown, particularly the case with respect to those by which they had been regranted for the matters, the exact import and full bearing public service. Forty-eight hours ago he of which could not be known, unless their could not have believed but that the sums lordships knew the precise words which alluded to were at the complete disposal had been used. With regard to the subof parliament; but when a statement had ject itself, he could answer to the fact, thus been made, and that, too, upon high that no treaties or engagements had been authority, by which it appeared, that under concluded, with reference to the matters a treaty concluded by the ministers of the to which the noble marquis had adverted, except such as were already before the thing should be done which trenched on House. He did, however, feel that mi- the rights of parliament, and that money nisters were accountable to parliament for should not be paid to the sovereign indivithe application of the money to the public dually, to be at his own private disposal, service. The noble marquis asked, whe. where it ought to be given, merely as the ther the money to be paid by France to head of the government of the country, to this country was to be considered as the be applied, under the control of parliamoney of the Crown or of the country? ment, to the public service.

It was one There were two sums--the one, a general of the most important principles of the sum of 700 millions of francs; the other, British constitution, that the money for a sum to be paid for the use of the army the payment of the army should be issued to be kept in France; and he would an- from the exchequer under the control of swer thus far, that, for the application of parliament; and unless this principle was both to the public service, ministers were preserved entire, one of the two great accountable to parliament. With respect principles upon which the authority of to the latter sum, it certainly would be parliament rested the power of the purse more convenient that it should be imme--was gone. He did not wish to press the diately imprest for the payment of the matter at present; but their fordships army, and it was intended that it should would be pleased to remember that it was be so. But still he conceived that parlia a question of no light moment, for every ment was entitled to a due account of its step taken in the business was in practice application. This was his feeling on the a decision upon a point of the very highest subject; but he did not consider himself constitutional magnitude and importance.. called upon to give any answer to the abstract question.

Peace ESTABLISHMENT.] The order Lord Grenville said, he did not ask the of the day for summoning their lordships Doble earl to give any opinion on the ab- being read, stract question; this was, however, not Lord Grenville rose. He said, that merely an abstract question, but a point when he gave notice of the motion which of constitutional principle, of the highest he was now about to submit to their lordimportance, which must be decided upon ships, and took the liberty of proposing at every step which ministers might take that their lordships should be summoned, with reference to this matter. It was im- he did not anticipate any opposition to the possible for them to take the least step in production of the paper which he intended practice, in the application of this money, to call for; and since he had come down without deciding the question, whether or to the House, he had still further reason, not this money was the property of the to believe that the motion was not to be sovereign individually, or the money of opposed. It certainly rested on very the country, to be under the control and strong grounds. If he had understood at the disposal of parliament. It was a that there was any doubt as to the provery different question, indeed, whether priety of laying before their lordships this the ministers were to be considered as estimate, he should have stated two periods accountable to parliament for the due ap- of our history at which motions similar plication of this money, and whether the to the present were made, and precisely mopey itself was to be at the disposal and on the very grounds upon which he now under the control of parliament. Ac- moved. The first was in the year 1742, when countable to parliament! Why so, they this country had entered into pecuniary were for the proper exercise of the clearest engagements for the support of some points and most undoubted rights and preroga. of continental policy. After the result of tives of the Crown. But the question one campaign, a proposal was made for here was, what were the rights of the some additional measures for the furtheCrown, and what were the rights of par. rance of the same object, and for making liament? He did not wish the noble earl good engagements which the Crown had, to discuss that matter at present, or to with the same view, already entered into. enter into a detail of what had been done, The lords at that period, in order to enor what opinions had been held on the able them the better to judge of the new subject; but he trusted that whatever cessity or expediency of further engage inaccuracies or errors might have been ments of that nature, thought it right that fallen into in past arrangements,

proper they should be informed of what would be care would be taken in future, that now the probable amount of the whole military