ters about figures, for I have in my hand a pamphlet published by the Secretary of the Treasury, stating a great number of items, several of which I difapprove, but every one of which I will take, fo that we shall not have the debate diverted from the principle to detail. We fhall have no quarrel about millions or pounds, but you will have a picture of the fituation of the country, fuch as none of your Lordships have had the leaft conception of. I will endeavour to debate the whole queftion as becomes the fubject, and as becomes myself, with that temper and moderation which is best calculated to produce conviction. A noble Lord acted properly when he applauded another noble Lord this evening for founding the trumpet of alarm; your Lordships will do right to hear me alfo found the trumpet of alarm, and the trumpet of truth. There is one item. which I fhall ftate, which is not in Mr. Rofe's book, and which he has totally omitted, not being a tax paid to Government, namely, the amount at which I shall take the parochial and county rates; but except that item, let it be remembered that there is not one item in the account which I am going to state to your Lordships, that is not to be found in the book I hold in my hand, published by that Secretary of the Treasury. The items stated by Mr. Rose I have endeavoured to bring to a point, the better to enable your Lordships to understand them; thefe are fo difperfed in his book, that unless they were brought under one view, it would be impoffible for your Lordships to comprehend them. In the laft page of this pamphlet you will find an Appendix (No. 7), the title of which is "An Account of the Income of Great Britain, as ftated by Mr. Pitt, diftinguishing the portion of it likely to be taxed under the Act." Your Lordships will fee in this statement, as it was prefented to the Houfe of Commons, a return of the income of landlords: it is ftated at the rate of 12s. 6d. per acre the average. Will any man say that 12s. 6d. per acre is the average for the whole country? Certainly it is too much; but I will not quarrel with him for this; the produce, taking this statement for granted, then is 25,000,000l.-This is the whole amount of the income of all the landlords in the country, high and low, rich and poor. Well, but Mr. Rofe makes a deduction for thofe landlords whofe incomes are under 6ols a year, who pay nothing, and for thofe under 2001. year, who will pay, on an average, only one fiftieth, the refult of which is, that out of the 25,000,000l. of income, that which is actually taxable amounts, according to Mr. Rofe, to no more than 20,000,000l. But fee what egregious blunders he makes; for in two fubfequent items he takes Scotland, and the places beyond fea, at 10,000,000l. but without making the smalleft deduction, or distinguishing the taxable part from that which is not taxable. Is there not a deduction to be made here? Will he fay there is no landlord in Scotland whofe income is below 200l. a year?-No fchool-boy would commit fuch blunders, or proceed on fuch falfe calculations. He then puts down 2,000,000l. for the profeffions; what is this but faying to the people of the country, the more you are fick, and the more you are litigious, the more you are capable to pay taxes. For although it be perfectly true, that the profeflions may be taxed, yet the income of the profeflions fhould, in the statement of the account, be deducted out of the income of thofe by whom the profeffions are fupported. His next item is the income upon houfes, and that he ftates at 6,000,cool.. In all taxes where owners of houses are themelves occupiers, they are liable to repairs and various expences, which confequently operate quoad fuch houfes as a defalcation of income instead of an increafe, and render the statement in this particular crroneous. Therefore I fhall omit the item refpecting houfes, as well as the item refpecting the profeffions." Lord AUCKLAND addreffcd a few words to the Lord Chancellor, but in too low a tone of voice to be diftinctly heard. Lord STANHOPE faid, "I with the noble Lord would speak a little louder. What he fays is, I dare fay, very fenfible, and I fhould wish to hear him-But to proceed-I fay, if a perfon lets a houfe, and receives a net income, a certain tax may be estimated upon it; but the perfon who hires the house is poorer to the fame amount, and therefore is to the fame amount lefs liable to pay taxes. Therefore the houfes which are let by the owners, as well as those which are inhabited by the owners, fhould all be omitted in making up the account. Now, my Lords, I have to make fuch a statement relative to the finances of the country, as must astonish you; and after having ftated the fum total, I fhall give you the articles of which it is compofed; and I have the book of the Secretary of the Treafury, fo that if any perfon doubts my ftatement, he may take the book and caft up the items. I can also state the very pages; and if Minifters fhall object to any of the items of the Secretary of the Treafury, it will be a difference of opinion between Minifters and George Rofe, and not between Minifters and Citizen Stanhope-[A general burst of laughter.]-My Lords, the melancholy fact proved by this book is, that the expences of the country, after the war, fuppofing its immediate termination to take place, including the taxes paid to Government, including the tythes paid the clergy, which are a tax as they refpect those who pay them, and including the parish rates, which alfo is a tax, would amount to the enormous fum of 44,354,000l. per annum; and this fuppofing peace was to take place to-morrow. I wish noble Lords would take down the items which compose this fum total, for a subject of more importance there cannot be. I take alfo from Mr. Rofe another article of which I have got the total, and that is the whole produce of the land which can be taxed, and which he calls taxable; it includes the whole produce of all the lands in England, above 2001. per ann. and all the lands in Scotland without exception, and all the incomes of individuals in Great Britain arifing from property in Ireland, and the Eaft and Weft Indies. The income of all our landed poffeffions at home and beyond fea will, according to the items in Mr. Rofe's account, give a fum total of only 43,000,000l. annually. Take this fum, and confider, at the fame time, the amount of the taxes you would have to pay after the war, if it were to cease to-morrow. It will then appear that the amount of the taxes is 1,350,000l. a year more than the whole landed produce of the kingdom and its dependencies, according to the statement of Mr. Rofe himself. Will Minifters venture to tell us of the real profperity of the country, when they are thus boasting of the flourishing state of the public revenue, when our taxes are not only more than the produce of England, but of Scotland, Ireland, and the Indies Eaft and Weft? I do not believe any noble Lord was aware that fuch a statement could be laid before the Honfe.-[A laugh from the Crifs Bench.]—You laugh! I am aftonished that Minifters fhould treat fo ferious a question with levity; but I will ftate particulars, and then let them laugh if they can. The items are as follow: Total Annual Produce of the Land which can be taxed. Landlords rents, as stated by Mr. Rofe £. 20,000,000 6,000,000 3,000,000 Mines, navigation, and timber, as ftated by Mr. Rofe Total annual produce of the land which can be taxed 4,000,000 10,000,000 £.43,000,000 Annual Taxes after the War, if the War were to end to-morrow. £.. 16,000,000 Eftimate of the peace establishment, as ftated by the Com- 8,264,000 Increased charges not included in the estimate of 1791 (in confequence of the increase of pay for 18,000 feamen, and of the army; and alfo in confequence of increased halfpay, &c. &c. as ftated by Mr. Rose, (in pages 5 and 6) £. 1,260,000 Additional peace establishment beyond the establishment in the laft peace; together with the expence of yeomanry and volunteers, as ftated by Mr. Rofe 1,330,000 Total of tithes paid by the people, as stated by Mr. Rose 5,000,000 5,000,000 Income tax, as ftated by Mr. Rose 7,500,000 Total of taxes per annum 44,354,000 Deduct the total annual produce of the land which can be taxed, as ftated above 43,000,000 Annual deficiency after the war, if the war were to cease "Now I cannot, my Lords, fuppofe any error in this statement. If I should be contradicted, and told that it proceeds upon mistaken principles, I must do that which none of your Lordships will imagine I came down to this House to do, namely, justify George Rose. I have stated the whole produce of the country, and the whole of the taxes. The taxes exceed the income in the proportion I have mentioned; I mean exclufively of the trade of the country. I have to quarrel with Mr. Rofe for his estimate respecting the income arifing from trade. The fair way is to draw the balance, by confidering what comes in from abroad, in contradiftinction to what goes abroad. His eftimate of the balance of trade, which he ftates at 14,000,000l. is unfair; because no man will fuppofe that it can continue to be 14,000,000l. after the war is over, and which even now is an exaggerated statement; but, to have no dispute upon this fubject, I will take the fuppoféd balance of trade exactly as he gives it. Now, my Lords, as to the comparative strength of England and France-when I was a Member of the House of Commons, I moved for a return of the number of houfes in England and Wales; they appeared by the return to be about 1,000,000; and this fact has been afcertained, that when you want to know the number of inhabitants of a country, get the number of houses, and multiply by 4 and 3-4ths, and you arrive nearly at the true eftimate. I, however, multiplied by 5-this gives 5,000,000 for England and Wales, which, with the popula tion of Scotland, makes 6,000,000. Now then look to the population of the French Republic-I find that, including Savoy and Nice, and all thofe countries it has conquered on the Rhine, the population of France is from 32 to 33,000,000; and this does not include the inhabitants of those countries which are allied to France; that is to fay, Holland, Switzerland, and Spain. In eftimating the refources of England and the French Republic, I shall, in the first place, deduct what the people of this country pay for parochial and county rates, because I have no information of the exact amount of payments of a fimilar nature made in France. This reduces our taxes 5,000,000l. below the statement I made to your Lordships. Then taking what remains, namely, 39,354,000l. and dividing it by the fix millions of inhabitants in Great Britain, you will find, that what the people of this country have to pay in taxes and in tythes will amount to above 61. 10s. for every inhabitant. Now I find by Mr. Rofe's estimate, that the whole fum paid by the French Republic annually to its Government is 15,000,000l.; confequently 15,000,000l. to be paid by 32,000,000 of inhabitants, amounts to lefs than Ios. each; yet we are told that this country, where we pay 61. 1os. is the best governed country in the world; and France, where they pay only ros. is oppreffed by its rulers, diftracted in its councils, ruined in its finances, and incapable of defending itself. It is impoffible for any one to confider fuch an argument in a ferious point of view. The next point to which I fhall draw the attention of - your Lordships, is the comparative ftate of the cultivation of England and France. Having been in places where I have seen much wafte land, I am the better enabled to speak on this subject— [Here fome noble Lords on the woolfack feemed inattentive].I must beg, faid he, that I may be heard with attention; for though this does not interrupt me, it interrupts the Houfe; if I am wrong, I beg it may be pointed out to me. I have been in several diftricts in Devonshire, and I have found, in that one county, more wafte land than there is land altogether in the county of Middlesex [He was again interrupted].-I cannot allow noble Lords to fpeak fo if they will talk, at leaft let me hear what they fay. I have to state, that, with refpect to France, fince hunting in the country has been fo much diminished, that is, fince the Revolution, and the overthrow of the feudal fyftem, it has been remarkably well cultivated. What a noble Lord (Auckland)--who really shifts about the House fo that I do not know where to look for him-he is not now in his place-what he fays as to the cultivation of France, proceeds upon a miftatement: he tells you there is no corn in France, at least not fufficient to afford any fupply to this country, because M. Neckar stated fome years ago that France did not, upon an average, produce quite corn enough for its own confumption; but he should recollect, that fince that period the country VOL. X. 4 Q |