nothing auayleable to the weale publique, for warre sake, which you neuer haue, but when you wyl your selfes, to keepe and mainteyn an vnnumerable flocke of that sort of men, that be so troublesome and noyous in peace, wherof you ought to haue a thowsand times more regarde, then of warre. But yet this is not only the necessary cause of stealing. There is an other, whych, as I suppose, is proper and peculiar to you Englishmen alone. What is that, quod the Cardinal? forsoth my lorde (quod I) your shepe that were wont to be so meke and tame, and so smal eaters, now, as I heare saye, be become so great deuowerers and so wylde, that they eate vp, and swallow downe the very men them selfes. They consume, destroye, and deuoure whole fieldes, howses, and cities.

Then follows the complaint which first arose in the reign of Henry VII., and was continued down to the days of Goldsmith's "Deserted Village," of the depopulation of the country by throwing land out of tillage to make large inclosures for sheep pasture : "They throw down houses, they pluck down towns, and leave nothing standing, but only the church to be made a sheep-house. And as though you lost no small quantity of ground by forests, chases, lands and parks, those good holy men turn all dwelling-places and all glebe-land into desolation and wilderness . . . for one shepherd or herdman is enough to eat up that ground with cattle, to the occupying whereof about husbandry many hands were requisite. And this is also the cause why victuals be now in many places dearer. Yea, besides this is the price of wool so risen, that poor folks, which were wont to work it and make cloth thereof, be now able to buy none at all. The wool is dear because it all comes into the hands of rich men, who sell only when they please, and that is only when they can sell it as dear as they please. Dearth of victual among those who are impoverished causes decay of house-keeping and a putting away of servants, who can do little but beg or steal. The very rich, who live in luxury and excess, spread a corruption that breeds beggary and theft after another fashion." So the talk runs on, and then Hythloday represents himself as having ended his argument at Cardinal Morton's table with the counsel:

Let not so many be brought vp in idelnes, let husbandry and tillage be restored, let clothe-workinge be renewed, that ther may be honest labours for this idell sort to passe their tyme in profitablye, whiche hitherto either pouertie hath caused to be theues, or elles nowe be either vagabondes, or idel seruing men, and shortelye wilbe theues. Doubtles onles you finde a remedy for these enormities, you shall in vaine aduaunce your selues of executing iustice vpon fellons. For this iustice is more beautiful in apperaunce, and more florishynge to the shewe, then either iuste or profitable. For by suffring your youthe wantonlie, and viciously to be brought vp, and to be infected, euen frome theyr tender age, by litle and litle with vice: then a goddes name to be punished, when they commit the same faultes after being come to mans state, which from their youthe they were euer like to do: In this pointe, I praye you, what other thing do you, then make theues, and then punish them? Now as I was thus speakinge, the Lawier began to make hym selfe readie to answere, and was determined with him selfe to vse the common fashion, and trade of disputers, whiche be more diligent in rehersinge,

then answering, as thinking the memorie worthy of the chief praise. In dede sir, quod he, you haue said wel, being but a straunger, and one that myghte rather heare some thing of these matters, then haue any exacte or perfecte knowledge of the same, as I wil incontinent by open proffe make manifest and plaine. For firste I will reherse in order all that you haue sayde: then I wyll declare wherein you be deceaued, through lacke of knowledge, in all oure fashions, maners and customes: and last of all I will aunswere youre argumentes, and confute them euery one. Firste therefore I wyll begynne where I promysed. Foure thynges you semed to me- - Holde youre peace, quod the Cardinall: for it appeareth that you will make no shorte auns were, which make suche a beginnynge. Wherefore at this time you shall not take the paynes to make youre aunswere, but kepe it to youre nexte meatynge, which woulde be righte glad, that it might be euen to morrowe next, onles either you or mayster Raphael haue any earnest let.1 But nowe mayster Raphael, I woulde verye gladlye heare of you, why you thinke thefte not worthye to be punished with deathe, or what other punishe mente you can deuise more expedient to the weale publique. For I am sure you are not of that minde, that you woulde haue thefte escape vnpunished. For yf nowe the extreme punishemente of deathe can not cause them to leaue stealinge, then yf ruffians and robbers shoulde be suer of their lyues: what violence, what feare were hable to holde their handes from robbinge, whiche woulde take the mitigation of the punishemente, as a verye prouocation to the mischiefe ? Suerlye my lorde, quod I, I thinke it not ryght nor iustice, that the losse of money should cause the losse of mans life. For myne opinion is, that all the goodes in the worlde are not hable to counteruayle mans life. But if they would thus say that the breakynge of iustice, and the transgression of the lawes is recompensed with this punishment, and not the losse of the money, then why maye not this extreme and rigorous iustice wel be called plaine iniurie? For so cruell gouernaunce, so streite rules, and vnmercyful lawes be not allowable, that if a small offense be committed, by and by the sword should be drawen: Nor so stoical ordinaunces are to be borne withall, as to counte al offenses of suche equalitie, that the killing of a man, or the takyng of his money from him were both a matter, and the one no more heinous offense then the other: betwene the whyche two, yf we haue anye respecte to equitie, no similitude or equalitie consisteth. God commaundeth vs that we shall not kill. And we be then so hastie to kill a man for takinge a litle money?

Reasoning is continued on the punishment of death, its disproportion to the offences for which it was inflicted, and the fact that it frequently turned thieves into murderers, for the punishment would be no greater, but there would be greater chance of escape, if the man who was robbed were also killed. Thieves should make restitution, not to the king, who has no more right than the thief to another man's goods, but to the right owner; and the punishment of thieves should be the requirement from them Other of labour upon works useful to the state. suggestions are based on the principle that the punishment "intendeth nothing else but the destruction of vices and saving of men; with so using and ordering them that they cannot choose but be good, and what harm soever they did before, in the residue of their life to make amends for the same." To such

suggestions, which Hythloday said that he based upon customs that he saw "used in Persia among the people that commonly bee called the Polylerites, "i

:

Naye, quod the lawier, this coulde neuer be so stablyshed in Englande, but that it must nedes bringe the weale publike into great ieoperdie and hasarde. And as he was thus sayinge, he shaked his heade, and made a wrie mouthe, and so he helde his peace. And all that were there present, with one assent agreed to his sayinge. Well, quod the Cardinall, yet it were harde to iudge withoute a proffe, whether this order would do wel here or no. But when the sentence of death is geuen, if than the kinge shoulde commaunde execution to be defferred and spared, and would proue this order and fassion takinge awaye the priuiliges of all saintuaries : if then the profe shoulde declare the thinge to be good and profitable, than it were wel done that it were stablished: Els the condempned and repriued persons may aswel and as iustly be put to death after this profe, as when they were first cast. Neither any ieoperdie can in the meane space growe herof. Yea, and me thynketh that these vagaboundes may very wel be ordered after the same fashion, against whom we haue hitherto made so many lawes, and so litle preuailed. When the Cardinall had thus saide, than euery man gaue greate praise to my sayinges, whiche a litle before they had disallowed. But moost of al was estemed that which was spoken of vagaboundes, bicause it was the cardinalles owne addition. I can not tell whether it were best to reherse the communication that folowed, for it was not very sad.2 But yet you shall heare it, for there was no euil in it, and partlye it parteined to the matter before saide. There chaunced to stand by a certein iesting parasite or scoffer, which wold seme to resemble and counterfeit the foole. But he did in suche wise counterfeit, that he was almost the verye same in dede that he labored to represent: he so studied with wordes and sayinges brought furth so out of time and place to make sporte and moue laughter, that he himselfe was oftener laughed at then his iestes were. Yet the foolishe fellowe brought out now and then such indifferent and reasonable stuffe, that he made the prouerbe true, which saieth: he that shoteth oft, at the last shal hit the mark. So that when one of the company sayd, that throughe my communication a good order was founde for theues, and that the Cardinal also had wel prouided for vagaboundes, so that only remained some good prouision to be made for them that through sicknes and age were fallen into pouertie, and were become so impotent and vnweldie, that they were not hable to worke for their liuinge: Tushe (quod he) let me alone with them: you shall se me do well ynough with them. For I had rather then any good, that this kinde of people were driuen sumwher oute of my sight, they have so sore troubled me manye times and ofte, when they haue wyth their lamentable teares begged money of me and yet they coulde neuer to my mynde so tune their songe, that thereby they euer got of me one farthinge. For euermore the one of these two chaunced: either that I would not, or els that I could not, bicause I had it not. Therfore now they be waxed wise. For when they see me go by, bicause they will not leese theyr labour, they let me passe and saye not one worde to me. So they loke for nothinge of me, no in good sothe no more, than yf I were a priest, or a monke. But I will make a lawe, that all these beggers shall be distributed, and bestowed into houses of religion. The men shalbe made laye brethren, as they call them, and the women

1 Polylerites, an imaginary name derived from two Greek words TOAùs, much, end Añpos, nonsense.

Sad, grave, serious.

nunnes. Hereat the Cardinal smiled, and allowed it in iest, yea and all the residue in good earnest. But a certeine freare graduate in diuinitie, toke suche pleasure and delite in this ieste of priests and monkes, that he also beynge elles a man of grislie and sterne grauitie, began merilie and wantonlye to ieste and taunt. Naye, quod he, you shall not so be ridde and dispatched of beggers, oneles you make some prouision also for vs frears. Why, quod the iester, that is done alreadie, for my lord him selfe set a verye good order for you, when he decreed that vagaboundes should be kept straite, and set to worke: for you be the greatest and veriest vagaboundes that be. This iest also, when they sawe the Cardinall not disproue it, every man toke it gladly, sauyng onelye the Frear. For he (and that no marueile) beynge thus touched on the quicke, and hit on the gaule, so fret, so fumed, and so chafed at it, and was in such a rage, that he could not refraine himselfe from chidinge, skolding, railing, and reuiling. He called the fellow ribbalde, villaine, iauel, backbiter, sclaunderer, and the childe of perdition: citing therwith terrible threateninges out of holie Scripture. Then the iestynge scoffer beganne to playe the scoffer in dede, and verely he was good at yt, for he could play a part in that play no man better. Patient youre selfe good maister Freare, quod he, and be not angrie, for scripture saieth: in youre patience you shall saue your soules. Then the Freare (for I will rehearse his own very woordes) No gallous wretche, I am not angrie (quod he) or at the leaste wise, I do not sinne: for the Psalmiste saith, be you angrie, and sinne not. Then the Cardinal spake gently to the freare, and desired him to quiete himselfe. No my lord, quod he, I speak not but of a good zeale as I oughte: for holye men had a good zeale. Wherefore it is sayd: the zeale of thy house hath eaten me. And it is songe in the church The skorners of Helizeus, whiles he went vp into the house of God, felte the zeale of the bald, as peraduenture this skorning villaine ribaulde shall feele. You do it (quod the Cardinall) perchaunce of a good mynde and affection: but me thinketh you should do, I can not tell whether more holilie, certes more wisely, yf you woulde not set youre witte to a fooles witte, and with a foole take in hande a foolishe contention. No forsoeth my lorde (quod he) I shoulde not do more wyselye. For Salomon the wyse saieth Answere a foole accordinge to his folye, like as I do nowe, and do shew him the pit that he shall fall into, yf he take not hede. For if many scorners of Helezeus, whiche was but one bald man, felte the zeale of the balde, how muche more shall one skorner of many frears feele, amonge whom be manye balde men? And we haue also the popes bulles, whereby all that mocke and skorne vs be excommunicate, suspended, and acursed. The cardinal, seing that none ende would be made, sent awaie the iester by a preuy becke,3 and turned the communication to an other matter. Shortly after, when he was risen from the table, he went to heare his sueters, and so dimissed vs.

To Hythloday's excuse for recalling this discourse at so much length, More answered, with a kind recollection of the friend and patron whom he had thus introduced into his fable, "Methought myself to be in the meantime not only at home in my country, but also through the pleasant remembrance of the Cardinal, in whose house I was brought up of a child, to wax a child again. And, friend Raphael, though I did bear very great love towards you before, yet seeing you do so earnestly favour

3 Privy becke, quiet sign to himself only.

this man, you will not believe how much my love towards you is now increased." But he holds to his opinion that Hythloday would be at his right post in a prince's court. Plato judges that a Commonwealth will be happy either if philosophers are kings, or if kings give themselves to study of philosophy. What happiness, then, can there be unless philosophers will vouchsafe to instruct kings with their good counsel ? Hythloday answers-and More has English politics in his mind when he makes Hythloday illustrate his answer by an example drawn from the politics of France

They be not so vnkinde (quod he) but they woulde gladlye do it, yea, manye haue done it alreadye in bookes that they haue put furthe, if kynges and princes would be willynge and readye to folowe good counsell. But Plato doubtlesse dyd well foresee, onelesse kynges themselues woulde applye their mindes to the studye of Philosophie, that elles they woulde neuer thoroughlye allowe the counsell of Philosophers, beynge themselues before euen from their tender age infected, and corrupt with peruerse, and euill opinions. Whiche thynge Plato hymselfe proued trewe in kinge Dionyse. If I shoulde propose to any kyng wholsome decrees, doynge my endeuoure to plucke out of hys mynde the pernicious originall causes of vice and noughtines, thinke you not that I shoulde furthewith either be driuen away, or elles made a laughyng stocke? Well suppose I were with the Frenche kynge, and there syttinge in his counsell, whiles in that mooste secrete consultation, the kynge him selfe there beynge presente in hys owne personne they beate their braynes, and serche the verye bottomes of their wittes to discusse by what crafte and meanes the kynge maye styl kepe Myllayne, and drawe to him againe fugitiue Naples, And then howe to conquere the Venetians, and how to bringe vnder his iurisdiction all Italie, then howe to win the dominion of Flaunders, Brabant, and of all Burgundie: with diuers other landes, whose kingdomes he hath longe a go in mind and purpose inuaded. Here whiles one counselleth to conclude a legue of peace with the Venetians, so longe to endure, as shall be thought mete and expedient for their purpose, and to make them also of their counsell, yea, and besides that to geue them part of the pray, whiche afterwarde, when they haue brought theyr purpose about after their owne myndes, they maye require and clayme againe. An other thinketh best to hiere the Germaynes. An other woulde haue the fauoure of the Swychers 3 wonne with money. An others aduyse is to appease the puissaunte power of the Emperoures maiestie wyth golde, as with a moste pleasaunte, and acceptable sacrifice. Whiles an other gyueth counsell to make peace wyth the kynge of Arragone, and to restoore vnto him hys owne kyngedome of Nauarre, as a full assuraunce of peace. An other commeth in with his fiue egges, and aduiseth to hooke in the kynge of Castell with some hope of affinitie or allyaunce, and to bringe to their parte certeine Pieers of his courte for greate pensions. Whiles they all staye at the chiefeste doubte of all, what to do in the meane time with Englande, and yet agree all in this to make peace with the Englishmen, and with mooste suer and stronge bandes to bynde that weake and feable friendeshippe, so that they muste be called frendes, and hadde in suspicion as enemyes. And that therfore the Skottes muste be hadde

1 Plato twice visited Sicily, and sought in vain to make a philosopher of Dionysius the younger.

& Francis I. succeeded Louis XII. as King of France is 1515. 3 Swychers, Swiss mercearies.

in a readines, as it were in a standynge, readie at all occasions, in aunters the Englishmen shoulde sturre neuer so lytle, incontinent to set vpon them. And moreouer preuilie and secretlye (for openlie it maye not be done by the truce that is taken) priuelie therefore I saye to make muche of some Piere of Englande, that is bannished hys countrey, whiche muste cleime title to the crowne of the realme, and affirme hym selfe iuste inhery toure thereof, that by this subtill meanes they maye holde to them the kinge, in whome elles they haue but small truste and affiaunce. Here I saye, where so great and heyghe matters be in consultation, where so manye noble and wyse menne counsell theyr kynge onelie to warre, here yf I selie man shoulde rise vp and will them to tourne ouer the leafe, and learne a newe lesson, sayinge that my counsell is not to medle with Italy, but to tarye styll at home, and that the kyngedome of Fraunce alone is almooste greater, then that it maye well be gouerned of one man: so that the kynge shoulde not nede to studye howe to gette more: And then shoulde propose vnto them the decrees of the people that be called the Achoriens,” whiche be situate ouer agaynste the Ilande of Utopia on the southeaste side. These Achoriens ones made warre in their kinges quarrell for to gette him another kingdome, whiche he laide claime vnto, and auaunced hymselfe ryghte inheritoure to the crowne thereof, by the tytle of an olde aliaunce. At the last when they had gotten it, an[d] sawe that they hadde euen as muche vexation and trouble in kepynge it, as they had in gettynge it, and that either their newe conquered subiectes by sundrye occasions were makynge daylye insurrections to rebell againste them, or els that other countreis were continuallie with diuers inrodes and forragynges inuadynge them so that they were euer fighting either for them, or agaynste them, and neuer coulde breake up theyr campes: Seynge them selues in the meane season pylled and impouerished: their money caried out of the realme: their own men killed to maintaine the glorye of an other nation : when they had no warre, peace nothynge better then warre, by reason that their people in war had so inured themselues to corrupte and wicked maners: that they had taken a delite and pleasure in robbinge and stealing: that through manslaughter they had gathered boldnes to mischiefe: that their lawes were had in contempte, and nothing set by or regarded: that their king beynge troubled with the charge and gouernaunce of two kingdomes, could not nor was not hable perfectlie to discharge his office towardes them both: seing againe that all these euelles and troubles were endles: at the laste layde their heades together, and like faithfull and louinge subiectes gaue to their kynge free choise and libertie to kepe styll the one of these two kingdomes whether he would alleginge that he was not hable to kepe both, and that they were mo then might well be gouerned of halfe a king forasmuche as no man woulde be content to take him for his mulettour, that kepeth an other mans moyles besydes his. So this good prince was constreyned to be content with his olde kyngedome, and to geue ouer the newe to one of his frendes. Who shortelye after was violentlie driuen out. Furthermore if I shoulde declare vnto them, that all this busie preparaunce to warre, wherby so many nations for his sake should be broughte into a troublesome hurlei-burley when all his coffers were emptied, his treasures wasted, and his people destroied, should at the length through some mischance be in vaine and to none effect: and that therfore it were best for him to content him selfe with his owne kingedome of fraunce, as his forfathers and predecessours did

:

Aunters, French " aventure." In aunters, if peradventure. Achorians, Greek áxopos, without place.

before him to make much of it, to enrich it, and to make it as flourishing as he could, to endeuoure him selfe to loue his subiectes, and againe to be beloued of them, willingly to liue with them, peaceably to gouerne them, and with other kyngdomes not to medle, seinge that whiche he hath all reddy is euen ynoughe for him, yea and more then he can wel turne hym to this myne aduyse maister More, how thinke you it would be harde and taken ?

So God helpe me not very thankefully, quod I.
Wel let vs procede then, quod he.

The next illustrations Hythloday draws from the forms of injustice by which kings think it accordant to high policy to contrive the raising of money to be spent in the farther impoverishing of a people, Here again, while the king's own wealth increases. Hythloday asks

Here agayne if I shoulde ryse vp, and boldelye affirme that all these counselles be to the kinge dishonoure and reproche, whose honoure and safetye is more and rather supported and vpholden by the wealth and ryches of his people, then by hys owne treasures: and if I should declare that the comminaltie chueseth their king for their owne sake, and not for his sake to the intent, that through his laboure and studie they might al liue wealthily sauffe from wronges and iniuries : and that therfore the kynge ought to take more care for the wealthe of his people, then for his owne wealthe, euen as the office and dewtie of a shepehearde is in that he is a shepherde, to feede his shepe rather than himselfe.

"And if I were to say that the name of a king is kept, and its majesty is lost when the king enriches himself by open wrongs?"

Of this mynde was the hardie and couragius Fabrice, when he sayde, that he had rather be a ruler of riche men, then be ryche himselfe. And verelye one man to liue in pleasure and wealth, whyles all other wepe and smarte for it, that is the parte, not of a kynge, but of a iayler. To be shorte as he is a folyshe phisition, that cannot cure his patientes disease, onles he caste him in an other syckenes, so he that cannot amend the liues of his subiectes, but be1 taking from them the wealthe and commoditie of lyfe, he muste nedes graunte that, he knoweth not the feate how to gouerne men. But let him rather amende his owne lyfe, renounce vnhonest pleasures, and forsake pride. For these be the chiefe vices that cause hym to runne in the contempte or hatred of his people. Let him lyue of hys owne, hurtinge no man. Let him doe cost not aboue his power. Let hym restreyne wyckednes. Let him preuente vices, and take awaye the occasions of offenses by well orderynge hys subiectes, and not by sufferynge wickednes to increase, afterward to be punyshed. Let hym not be to hastie in callynge agayne lawes, whyche a custome hathe abrogated: specially such as haue bene longe forgotten, and neuer lacked nor neaded. And let hym neuer vnder the cloke and pretence of transgression take suche fynes and forfaytes, as no Iudge wyll suffre a priuate persone to take, as vniuste and ful of gile. Here if I should brynge forth before them the lawe of the Macariens,2 whiche be not farre distaunt from Utopia: whose Kynge the daye of hys coronation is bounde by a solempne othe, that he shall neuer at anye time haue in hys treasure aboue a thou

1 But be, unless by.

2 Macarians, from the Greek μaxápios, happy.

sande pounde of golde or syluer. They saye a verye good kynge, whiche took more care for the wealthe and commoditye of his countrey, then for th[e] enriching of himselfe, made this lawe to be a stop and a barre to kinges from heaping and hording vp so muche money as might impoueryshe their people. For he forsawe that this som of treasure woulde suffice to supporte the kynge in battaile against his owne people, if they shoulde chaunce to rebell and also to maintein his warres againste the inuasions of his forreyn enemies. Againe he perceiued the same stocke of money to be to litle and vnsufficient to encourage and enhable him wrongfullye to take away other mens goodes: whyche was the chiefe cause whie the lawe was made. An other cause was this. He thought that by this prouision his people shoulde not lacke money, wherewith to mayneteyne their dayly occupieng 3 and chaffayre. And seynge the kynge could not chewse but laye out and bestowe al that came in aboue the prescript some of his stocke, he thought he woulde seke no occasions to doe his subiectes iniurie. Suche a kynge shalbe feared of euel men, and loued of good men. These, and suche other informations, yf I shoulde vse among men wholye inclined and geuen to the contrarye part, how deaffe hearers thinke you shoulde I haue?

Deaffe hearers douteles (quod I) And in good faith no marueyle. And to be plaine with you, truelye I can not allowe that suche communication shalbe vsed, or suche counsell geuen, as you be suere shall neuer be regarded nor receaued. For howe can so straunge informations be profitable, or how can they be beaten into their headdes, whose mynds be allredye preuented with cleane contrarye persuasions? This schole philosophie is not vnpleasaunte amonge frendes in familiare communication, but in the counselles of kinges, where greate matters be debated and reasoned with greate authoritye, these thinges haue no place.

That is it whiche I mente (quod he) when I sayde philosophye hadde no place amonge kinges.

More represents himself as arguing still against Hythloday, that the abstract truths of philosophy would, indeed, be as much out of place in a king's court as the noblest speech of Seneca would be if thrust into a comedy of Plautus, where vile bondmen are scoffing and trifling among themselves. But a ship must not be forsaken in a tempest because you cannot rule the winds. A subtle management may sometimes control the ignorant and headstrong, "and that which you cannot turn to good, so order it that it be not very bad. For it is not possible for all things to be well, unless all men were good; which, I think, will not be yet these good many years.

"In this way," said Hythloday, "nothing will be brought to pass, but that whilst I go about to remedy the madness of others I should be even as mad as they. If I were to speak of what Plato feigns in his Republic, or the Utopians do in theirs, I should be as far away from man's present life as the rule of Christ would be if truly followed. But preachers, sly and wily men, have wrested Christianity to bring it into some agreement with the ways of men. The Utopians have all goods in common. Of what use would it be to reason among owners of property that we should follow the better plan of the Utopians?"

But I am of a contrary opinion (quod I) for me thinketh that men shal neuer there liue wealthelye, where all thinges be commen. For howe can there be abundaunce of gooddes, or of any thing, where every man withdraweth his hande from labour? Whome the regard of his owne gaines driueth not to worke, but the hope that he hath in other mens trauayles maketh him slowthfull. Then when they be pricked with pouertye, and yet no man can by any lawe or right defend that for his owne, which he hathe gotten with the laboure of his owne handes, shal not there of necessitie be continual sedition and blodeshed? Speciallye the authoritye and reuerence of magistrates beinge taken awaye, whiche, what place it maye haue with such men amonge whome is no difference, I cannot deuise.

I maruel not (quod he) that you be of this opinion. For you conceaue in youre minde either none at al, or els a verye false Image and similitude of this thing. But yf you had bene with me in Utopia, and had presentelye sene theire fasshions and lawes, as I dyd, whyche liued there. v. yeares and moore, and wolde neuer haue commen thence, but onlye to make that newe lande knowen here: Then doubtless you wolde graunt, that you neuer sawe people wel ordered, but onlye there.

Surely (quod maister Peter) it shalbe harde for you to make me beleue, that there is better order in that newe lande then is here in these countryes that wee knowe. For good wittes be aswel here as there and I thinke oure commen wealthes be auncienter than theires: wherin long vse and experience hath found out many thinges commodious for mannes lyfe, besides that manye thinges heare amonge vs haue bene founde by chaunce, which no wytte colde euer haue deuysed.

As touchinge the auncientnes (quod he) of common wealthes, that you might better iudge, if you had red the histories and cronicles of that land, which if we may beleue, cities were there, before men were here. Nowe what thinge soeuer hetherto by witte hath bene deuised, or found by chaunce, that myght be aswel there as here. But I thinke verily, though it were so that we did passe them in witte : yet in study, in trauaile, and in laboursome endeuoure they farre passe vs. For (as theire Chronicles testifie) before our arriual there, they neuer hard any thing of vs, whome they cal the vltraequinoctialles: sauing that ones about .M.CC. [twelve hundred] yeares ago, a certeine shyppe was lost by the Ile of Utopia whiche was driuen thether by tempest. Certeine Romaines and Egyptians were cast on lande. Whyche after that neuer wente thence. Marke nowe what profite they tooke of this one occasion through delygence and earneste trauaile. There was no crafte nor scyence within the impire of Rome wherof any proffite could rise, but they either lerned it of these straungers, or els of them taking occasion to searche for it, founde it oute. So greate proffite was it to them that euer anye wente thyther from hence. But yf annye like chaunce before this hath brought anye man from thence hether, that is as quyte out of remembraunce, as this also perchaunce in time to come shalbe forgotten, that euer I was there. And like as they quickelye, almoste at the first meting, made theire owne, what soeuer is amonge vs wealthelye deuised: so I suppose it wolde be long before we wolde receaue anythinge, that amonge them is better instituted then amonge vs. And this I suppose is the chiefe cause whie their common wealthes be wyselyer gouerned, and doe flowrish in more wealthe, then ours, though we neither in wytte nor riches be their inferiours.

Therefore gentle Maister Raphael (quod I) I praye you and beseche you describe vnto vs the Ilande. And study not to be shorte: but declare largely in order their groundes,

their riuers, their cities, theire people, theire manners, their ordinaunces, their lawes, and to be short al thinges, that you shal thinke vs desierous to knowe.. And you shal thinke vs desierous to know what soeuer we knowe not yet.

There is nothing (quod he) that I wil doe gladlier. For all these thinges I haue freshe in mind. But the matter requireth leasure.

Let vs go in therfore (quod I) to dinner, afterward we wil bestowe the time at our pleasure.

THE ISLAND OF UTOPIA.
From the Plan drawn for the Edition of 1518.

lande Sauing that by litle and litle it commeth in, and waxeth narrower towardes both the endes. Which fetching about a circuite or compasse of V.C. [five hundred] Miles, do fassion the whole Iland like to the new mone. Betwene these two corners the sea runneth in, diuidyng them a sonder by the distance of. xi. miles or there abouts, and there surmountethe into a large and wyde sea, which by reason that the land on euery side compassethe it about, and shiltreth it from the windes, is not roughe, nor mounteth not with great waues, but almost floweth quietlye, not muche vnlike a greate standinge powle: and maketh welnieghe all the space within the bellye of the lande in maner of a hauen: and to the