EVIDENCE.

Lord MELVILLE was the first witness called, and upon his lordship being sworn, Sir Home Popham put the following question:--

Will your lordship have the goodness to relate to the Court all the circumstances within your recollection, respecting the communications I held with Mr. Pitt and your lordship, collectively or individually, upon the subject of a proposed expedition to South America?"

Lord MELVILLE-" I feel some difficulty in answering this question. I have no doubt that I might answer such questions as can be material to the views of either party, without being called upon to make any allusion to confidential state secrets, and the question just put makes no exception."

Sir H. POPHAM---" Nothing can be more foreign to my wish, than to call for any disclosure, at all likely to lead to such a result, as the improper publication of a state secret. No--rather let my private interest suffer, than such a consequence be even risked. In order to guard against such a thing, I propose the addition to the question of these words, which I hope will meet the approbation of the Court, and obviate the objections of the noble lord, namely, provided they do not interfere with any state secret.'

Those words being added to the question, the noble lord returned the following answer:

"Soon after I came to the head of the Board of Admiralty, I had occasion to learn that the administration, preceding that of which I formed

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a part, had communications with General Miranda respecting some projects he entertained. relative to South America. I did not immediately give much attention to that subject; because, not being then at war with Spain, it did not occur to me how, consistently with that situation, the government of this country could take any. active part in the business. In the progress of the summer of 1804, and particularly towards the autumn of that year, I had little doubt in my own mind, from the official information I had occasion to receive at the Board of Admiralty, and from communications with the heads of other public departments, that such war must soon take place; I therefore thought it my duty, through Sir Evan Nepean, Sir Home Popham, and others, who, I had reason to think, were acquainted with what had passed under former administrations, to inform myself more minutely relative to the views and projects of General 'Miranda: I likewise had more than once confidential conversations with General Miranda himself: the result was, an opinion, that, although it might not be wise or expedient, nor perhaps within the means of the country at that time, to commit themselves fully to the extent of his projects, it was of the utmost im portance to this country so far to watch the progress of his operations, as to make use of them if they could be made subservient to the purpose of opening the South American market to the trade and manufactures of this country; and upon that principle, I had, as upon every other public subject, almost daily communication, both in town and at Wimbledon, with Mr. Pitt, then at the head of the government, with which I was connected. The subject was the more familiar to my consideration, because for many

years past, particularly in the year 1796, I had occasion to consider it very maturely, with a view of preparing, in concert with the then Board of Admiralty, operations against South America upon a very extensive scale. I was at that time Secretary of State for the War Department.. In consequence of the conversations I had with Mr. Pitt, as already mentioned, toward, I think, about the month of October or November, 1804 (it was nearly about the time the war broke out about the capture of the four Spanish frigates), I desired Sir Home Popham to attend me, in order that he might be at hand to attend Mr. Pitt and myself at any time we might have occasion to talk with him."

Sir HOME then presented the noble lord a letter, in order to assist his memory.

"I see," said the witness, "the letter is dated the 1st Dec. 1804." [His lordship read the letter of that date, as follows:]

Letter from Lord MELVILLE to Sir HOME POPHAM, dated Wimbledon, Dec. 1, 1804.

DEAR SIR HOME,

GENERAL Miranda is not more importunate with you than he is with me: but he unfortunately supposes us at war with Spain; we are not so, nor have we heard a word from Mr. Frere, even of his having left Madrid. The negociation may be therefore still going on; and the same difficulties subsist with regard to the operations suggested by General Miranda, which have subsisted for so long time past. We must hear soon, and if we do not within a day or two, I still think I shall send for you to come upon leave of absence. I have been looking about, but I do not find any thing more ready than the Diadem, in which I can place you; and it will be a few days before even she is commissioned. MELVILLE.

(Signed)

"Some time after that, Sir Home Popham came to town, and I had many conversations with him, in consequence of the various conversations I had from day to day had on the subject with Mr. Pitt, and these conversations continued during the remaining period I continued at the Admiralty. I ceased to be in that situation immediately after the 8th of April, 1805. I had many interviews with Mr. Pitt after that period, and indeed during the whole period of his life, till our final separation at Bath, the beginning of the year 1806. But from the time I ceased to be his colleague in office, I made it an invariable rule to avoid all conversation with him upon subjects of a public or confidential nature, so that from my own knowledge I can speak to nothing after the 8th of April, 1805."

Q. Does your lordship recollect directing me to attend Mr. Pilt at Wimbledon, some time in the month of October 1804, when there was nobody present but your lordship and Mr. Pitt, and that I remained the whole evening explaining all General Miranda's views, and discussing the objects to which he was anxious to call the attention of this country?

A. I remember perfectly well such interview taking place, but I cannot charge my memory with the precise month; it was in 1804.

Q. Was is it on the day of the night that Mr. Pitt. went down to Weymouth to the King?

A. I think it was--I think it was very likely to be on that night, as he went from my house.

Q. Does your lordship recollect desiring me to send for General Miranda-after conversing with him upon every subject relative to South America, to draw up a specific memorial on that subject, and to explain, to the best of my judgment, the readiest way of embracing all the views which General Miranda had from time to time submitted to the government, either through me or by himself?

A. I recollect perfectly having received such a memoir, being very glad to know the full extent of General Miranda's views; but certainly avoiding to commit myself or the British government in them beyond the object I have already stated; I mean the market

of South America, upon which subject I have certainly entertained a most anxious wish almost from the time I had occasion to take the public concerns under my more immediate consideration, and that anxiety has certainly never diminished, but much increased in consequence of all the events which for some years past have taken place in the East Indies, the West Indies, and, above all, upon the continent of Europe.

Q. In consequence of your lordship's great pressure of business, it is possible you may not recollect all the circumstances relating to this object so well as myself, who had nothing else to attend to; but you may possibly recollect having desired me to draw up the memoir in question?

A. I certainly employed you so to do, and I thought I had so expressed myself before.

Q. Does your lordship recollect that when you did me the honour to appoint me to the Diadem, it was for the sole purpose of carrying into execution, either some part, or the whole of the plan submitted to your consideration in the above recited memorial?

A. I do recollect that when Sir Home Popham was appointed to the Diadem, the object then immediately in view, was to co-operate either with or without General Miranda, in such objects mentioned in the memorial as might be thought conducive to the interests of Great Britain.

Q. Does your lordship recollect, while you were at the Admiralty, whether the intention of employing me on this subject was so far advanced, as to bring under your contemplation the part on which I was positively to be employed, and the limited discretion to pursue, if successful, the first object, or to follow whatever other might appear to me most salutary in advancing the general view of opening the markets of South America to the active enterprise of our merchants?

A. I know certainly the great object was the South American market, but I cannot speak to any further details at that time, as the business was then not so far advanced as to be the subject of detailed instructions, which might have fixed the particulars more in

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