Dodwell. Henry. Dodwell. Bishop. Henry. Dodwell. Henry. Bishop. Henry. I do not know where else; their power was given by Christ doth not give by immediate revelation. It is inherent in them by virtue of their office. This government being, as it was, in the apostle's time, administered by a whole body of presbyters, whether you, in such a case, would have written to one of this body only, and not the rest. Ŏrdain elders in every city; it is not a thing done one time. If the government of the church in the apostle's time, were by common authority, it ought to be so now. But it was so according to this gentleman's argument. As far as I say, it is so still, for I only mentioned common authority, in opposition to particular presbyters not having particular proportions of their flock committed to their particular charge; that is not now by your doctrine. The apostle's doctrine is my doctrine, that I am to be ruled by those that preach to me.* Obey them which have the rule over, that preach to you, &c. That is one argument we have against diocesans, that they rule us that do not preach to us. Show this to be scripture, or else wipe it out. I have showed the office of government and preaching to be different, and, therefore, they may govern you that do not preach to you. Hebrews, xiii. 7. Remember them that have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God, compare it with verse 17, for they are the same persons. Those in the seventh verse, are those that were dead, those in the 17th verse, are those that were living. Henry. They were such, as while they did live, did rule and preach. Bishop. Bishop. Henry. Owen. Henry. That cannot be proved. Put that into a syllogism. Remember them which have the rule over you, verse 17, obey them. Egoumeni,-it is the same word. Your our lordship supposes them dead,-that is not the argument. Grant them to be either dead or alive, the argument is the same; when they were alive, they did rule over them, and did preach to them the word of God. Bishop. That did the Apostle James, and James, Bishop of Jerusalem. In scripture we find, what ruling any minister hath, it is over such people as he speaks the word of God to, Hebrews, xiii. 7. See Gospel Conversation, by Jer. Burroughs. p. 30. 4to. 1648. See ante, p. 107. Henry. Bishop. Bishop. Henry. Bishop. Henry. Bishop. Henry. Bishop. Henry. Henry. Doth your lordship think nobody else did preach to them? I know none that did but those. The argument is still the same; those that had the rule over them, were those that preached to them the word of God. You saw in that text, 1 Timothy, v. 17, they are spoken of as distinct offices.* Let the elders that rule well, be counted worthy of double honour, especially, &c. By your lordship's favour, that is the thing that is urged against those, against lay-elders; you make use of that interpretation in that place. Let the elders, &c. especially they who labour, &c.; that is, if they are such rulers as are preachers; therefore, ruling and preaching are in the same person. Therefore there may be rulers that are not preachers. It is a presbytery that is spoken of there, and not bishops. You infer hence, that those only are to be their rulers, that are their teachers. Yes. Why should they be called by the same name, and the one be apostles, and the other, ordinary presbyters? The Hebrews, if they are to speak of a christian bishop, call him egoumenos. So is every minister to his flock. Those distinctions were really distinctions of government, and of teaching. So there are distinct offices. That doth not follow. What, so many offices as gifts? An office of memory then. Dodwell. The scripture doth not mention that; utterance it doth. I am showing the names of the offices; as these are distinct gifts of the Spirit, so there are offices suitable to those as distinct, they that had the gift of government, they are called , they that had the gift of teaching, are called pastors or teachers. Henry. Dodwell. Henry. Resolve to lay by names, and speak of things. They that were both pastors and teachers, were particularly to be respected. I think every pastor is to be a teacher. Dodwell. I say not. He ascended up on high, he gave gifts unto men, &c. Henry. It is some pastors and teachers; it is not some pastors and some teachers. Dodwell. They seem to be in that place as much distinct pastors and teachers, as apostles and evangelists. See Baxter's Nonconformist's Plea for Peace. p. 194. oct. 1679. Henry. What is gathered from thence, that is, as in the government of the Church of Scotland, they have their doctors, that is, teachers, that is to manage controversies, and preach on such subjects. Pastors are to apply themselves to practical preaching. I do not know what the gentleman would infer thence. Dodwell. That text, that those which rule, count worthy of double honour, especially, &c. shews that they might be very separable offices; as they were separable offices, so the rulers might be distinct from the labourers in word and doctrine; some might do one, and some the other, and some both. Henry. Henry. Bishop. Owen. Bishop. I do not understand any thing you drive at by that. That consequence that you spoke of just now, I overthrow, wherein you made governing and teaching synonymous,-none to govern you, but those that taught you, this proves that the same persons were not necessary to do both. No. Let the elders that rule, &c. ; but if they be rulers, and do not labour in the word and doctrine, they are to have but single honour; and, therefore, both might be in the same person. We have been about that which is of little moment. Here is plainly a command to Timothy, to see to that matter of distributing honours and rewards among the elders of the church, and to receive accusations, and judge upon them, and to punish whatever it is that elenchyn signifies. Here is also a power of ordination given to the same single person, (for that is in the singular number,) the apostle charges him to lay hands suddenly on no man; the same is given to another single person, Titus. These epistles were written to Timothy and to Titus, after Paul came out of prison. Be pleased to prove that the 1st of Timothy* was written after his coming out of prison at Rome. I will prove it. That which was written by St. Paul, going into Macedonia, to Timothy, abiding still at Ephesus, must be written after his coming out of prison. Owen. I deny the major. Bishop. Owen. Bishop. Paul was but twice at Ephesus, he could not be there sooner than we read, Acts xviii. You speak of Macedonia. I deny your major, that it was written after his coming out of prison. That which was so circumstanced, I must prove that by texts; that which was written by Paul, going into Macedonia, and leaving Timothy at Ephesus, must be after As to the controversy respecting the date of this Epistle. See Dr. Doddridge's Family Expositor, v. 5. pp. 356–362. Owen. Bishop. Owen. Bishop. Henry. Bishop. he was at liberty, because there could be no such thing before he went into prison; before that, he was only twice at Ephesus, and it could not be either of those times. You say it was neither the first nor the second journey, therefore, it was not till after. I suppose it might be. He was so far from leaving Timothy at Ephesus, that he, being there, sent Timothy into Macedonia, and there met Timothy. But, my lord, you will find that after Paul sent Timothy to Macedonia, he designed speedily to go after him, but there fell out an uproar, that detained him a considerable time; and Grotius thinks Timothy did return to Paul, to Ephesus, before he went into Macedonia; and so Paul leaves Ephesus, goes to Macedonia, thence to Greece,stays there three months, comes to Macedonia again, and Timothy came to meet him there. I grant you that Paul went into Macedonia, and all that which follows, that there he did meet with Timothy; but that he returned to Ephesus, I do not at all sit down by Grotius's opinion. Pray give me a reason. His opinion is, that the 2nd of Thessalonians was written before the 1st of Thessalonians, which is a senseless thing. He had his faults. It is the opinion of most writers on the text. You can hardly produce any author that will stand by this notion of your's; that it was a third journey that was intended in the Epistle to Timothy. Hammond. Lightfoot is of another mind. He wrote his Epistle to the Corinthians at that time. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, was preached among you by us, &c.-2nd of Corinthians was written by Paul and Timothy. Owen. It was so, my lord. Bishop. Owen. Dodwell. Owen. There are several things to be considered in the proof of this, being a point of chronology, he sent Timothy from Ephesus into Macedonia; he finds afterwards, Timothy in Macedonia; it lies upon you to prove that Timothy was at Ephesus between; and you should prove also, that St. Paul left Timothy at Ephesus, when he went into Macedonia. Here it appears to be quite contrary. I will show you another argument; it appears, I have produced several authorities to prove it, which I thought sufficient. Capellus. There are chronologers of many minds. All their authorities do not weigh with me against one word of scripture. I will show that it is a new way you go. I cannot find any one that times this Epistle so late as your lordship mentions. Baronius quotes several authors. Bishop. The Epistle which was written after Timothy's suffering for the christian faith. I have shewed that St. Paul sent Timothy from Ephesus into Macedonia, you do not bring him back again. I will show farther. Roberts. Owen. Bishop. Owen. Owen. Owen. you Let that Ïye, and go to another argument. That Epistle which was written after Timothy had been a sufferer for the christian faith, was written after Paul's imprisonment at Rome; this was written after Timothy had suffered for the profession of the faith. What does this prove? Therefore it was written after Paul was set at liberty. St. Paul being at Rome, we find Timothy with him. Chapter vi. 12; Fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on eternal life whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses;—it is the same which follows in the next verse, Christ before Pilate had witnessed a good confession, so had Timothy before this time. even as My lord, you are to prove that this was at Rome. He was Paul's companion in many of his troubles; it is conceived, Timothy went with Paul to Rome, and he suffered much by the way, and it is like he might suffer with him. This is no clear proof. |