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have taken place, but that misreprefentation ought to have been anticipated by fome earlier propofition on the fubject. He preffed the Right Honourable Gentleman to inform the Houfe what motive, what reafon, what pretence could exift for the delay of a fortnight which had intervened? He did not impute any refponfibility to the Admiralty, as they had done all they could do.

Mr. Fox afked if there was any man that would deny that if the news of this vote having paffed would be of advantage in the beginning of this week, it would not have been of equal importance in the beginning of last week, or the preceding one? How could this fortnight's delay be juftified? He differed from his Honourable Friend (Mr. Sheridan) on the exculpation of the Lords of the Admiralty. The vote he confeffed could not have originated in the other Houfe; but he wondered how a man of fo much honour and fpirit as Lord Spencer, whom he fincerely efteemed, fhould have fuffered the fubject to be delayed for a fortnight in the Houfe of Commons. "Were I in his Lordfhip's fituation," fays Mr. Fox, " I should not have remained in office to behold fuch an act of criminality in my colleagues." Misconception might have exifted, and to this perhaps was owing the new difturbances that had taken place. The Right Honourable Gentleman indeed had often the fortune to be mifunderstood, owing to the perverfeness of his audience, no doubt, but it was rather unlucky that this fo often happened, though his audience was compofed of men of all defcriptions; but putting it on this ground, that any room was given for misunderstanding was a great misfortune to the country, and a great act of criminality in those who should have prevented it.

The refolution then paffed nem. con.

The House being refumed, the Report was immediately received, and agreed to nem. con.

Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, May 9.

LOAN BILL.

On the Motion for the fecond reading of the Bill for granting to his majesty fourteen millions five hundred thousand pounds, by way of Loan,

The Earl of Suffolk begged leave to ask a question of the Noble Secretary of State (Lord Grenville) which was, whether any part of that money to be raised by this Bill was intended to be fent to Ireland ?

Lord Grenville faid, that certainly the fum of one million five hundred thousand pounds was intended for the fervice of the Sister Kingdom.

The

The Earl of Suffolk faid, he thought the Houfe ought well to confider the fubject before they gave their affent to fo large a portion of the public money being fent out of the kingdom, at this time of unexampled diftrefs and calamity, without having fome explanation given them as to the purposes to which this money was to be applied. He was afraid, he faid, that it was meant for the purposes of coercing the people of that country. If fo, it would be far better that it fhould never go. Nothing, in his opinion, could be more to be deprecated, than a continuance of the measures which had been for fome time past adopted in Ireland. He hoped, therefore, the Noble Secretary would inform him how this money was intended to be applied.

Lord Grenville faid, that the queftion of the Noble Earl had placed him in a very difficult fituation. Indeed it was impoffible for him to answer it. The money was to be sent to the Government of Ireland, for the purpofe of defraying all expences which were neceffary for the defence of that country against our Enemies, and those who aided or abetted them. When the money once arrived in that country, it then became the province of the Irish Parliament to dispose of it in fuch manner as to them fhall feem beft for the general interefts and defence of the country against all its enemies. It was out of his power, therefore, to give any further anfwer on the fubject.

The Earl of Suffolk faid, that if he thought the money was intended to be used for the defence of that country, against her external enemies, no man would be readier, or vote for it more eagerly than he would. He was, however, very much afraid it was rather intended for the purposes of coercion of the people there, which was what he deprecated as one of the most unwife and impolitic systems that could poffibly be purfued. No man who was at all acquainted with the fituation of the two countries, could have a doubt upon his mind of the immenfe importance of Ireland to this kingdom. No man who had confidered this great importance would deny, that Ireland was, in fact, the right arm of this country, and, if that was admitted, how dreadful must it be to contemplate the great danger there was, that from the mifchievous meafures which had lately been adopted in that country, the right arm was likely to be lopped off from the body. He thought, therefore, the Houfe ought rather to interpofe its influence to prevail on his Majefty's Minifters to adopt conciliating measures, in order to calm the minds of the unhappy people of that country, than vote away fo large a fum of money, to be ufed for carrying on a fyftem of coercion, from which he could not help dreading the most fatal and mischievous confequences, if they were madly perfifted in.

Lord

Lord Grenville faid, that Minifters in this country could no interfere in the measures adopted in Ireland, without the breach of a folemn compact.

Earl Moira conceived that his Noble Friend (Lord Suffolk) had, with regard to the money advanced by the Loan, rather mifapprehended the fubject. It was a Loan raifed for Ireland, under the guarantee of this country. He perfectly agreed with him, however, on the other parts of his Lordship's speech, and could not think himself juftified in giving a filent vote on the prefent occafion. From the languid manner in which their Lordfhips feemed to attend to what he said on a former occafion, he concluded that they were of opinion that this country had no intereft in the concerns of Ireland. As he was of a very different opinion, of an opinion fo different, that he conceived the very existence of Great Britain to depend upon her connexion with Ireland, he again called upon their Lordihips ferioufly to confider the tendency of the measures which Minifters had adopted, and were ftill pursuing, in that country. His Lordfhip faid, that the argument made ufe of by the Noble Secretary of State, both in anfwer to him on a former night, and to his Noble Friend on the present occafion, "that his Majefty's Minifters could not interfere with Ireland without a breach of compacts," was childish in the extreme, and much more mischievous than childish. He warned their Lordships, however, how they continued to give ear to fuch weak arguments. He had no hesitation in declaring that if these measures were perfifted in, and if the fame fyftem was continued, that they hazarded a difmemberment of the British Empire; whereas, had the measures of conciliation been adopted, which he proposed a short time ago, he firmly believed that things in that quarter would already have worn a much more promifing afpect. He did not know whether it was not already too late; but if they perfevered much longer in the fame line of policy, he ventured to predict that Ireland, if not wrefted from under the dominion of the British King, would be reduced to a fituation in which it would be caufe to the English Government of continual diftruft, fufpicion, and alarm. He begged them to recollect the dreadful confequences which had refulted from a fimilar fyftem of coercion pursued against America. In the beginning of that fatal fyftem, we had begun by ftigmatizing them as rebels, and had thence compelled them to be fo. We had declared the Americans to be rebels---we had threatened to punish them as fuch. The Americans received the information with astonishment, as nothing had been farther from their thoughts than any idea of rebellion. Finding, however, that they were declared rebels, and to be treated as fuch, the indignation which they felt, added to the dread of that punishment which they fo

little merited, drove them to that firm and compact bond of union which enabled them to beat us out of the country, and to complete their independence. He warned the King's Ministers against a fimilar event in Ireland; and if they were so shortfighted, fo infatuated, as not to give wholefome advice to his Majefty upon the fubject, he entreated their Lordfhips not to be filent when they faw the moft important interefts of the country at ftake, but to advise his Majesty to employ fuch conciliatory measures as may tend to attach his fubjects in that part of his dominions to his perfon and government. Had Minifters, inftead of acting upon a fyftem of coercion, yielded to the demand, or rather might he have faid, hearkened to the petitions, of the Roman Catholics and Diffenters in that kingdom, they would at this moment have been prepared to parry the greatest dangers by which the country might be threatened, and inftead of being under the neceffity of fending money for the fervice of Ireland, they might have been deriving the moft effectual means of national defence from that quarter. Whether it was now too late to alter the fyftem of measures in that kingdom, he could not take upon himself to fay, but if the fame measures were pursued much longer, he was at no lofs to deliver it as his opinion that they would be attended with the moft calamitous effects that this country had ever known. He entreated their Lordships fcriously to reflect that the queftion was not merely whether Ireland was or was not to remain attached to the British Crown; but whether the Government of this country was to exift, or to be annihilated; for he ventured to affirm, that if Ireland was wrefted from under the dominion of his Majefty, the Government of Great Britain would not furvive for fix months. Ireland, if ever it fhould be deprived of the protection of this country, muft neceffarily league itself with another State, and when we are deprived of this arm of ftrength, he begged to know whether we could make any effectual refiftance to an enemy already too powerful, with this new acceffion of refource? It was not, therefore, the honour and credit of the English Crown which he called upon their Lordships to vindicate, it was for their acres that he entreated them to confult; for the Church Eftablishment, and the livings attached to it, which he invoked the Reverend Prelates to defend. Under these impreffions, he now took the liberty of repeating what he had formerly urged, convinced as he was that he should have been deficient in the duty which he owed to his Sovereign and to his country, had he neglected the opportunity which was afforded him by the mention of Ireland, of throwing out confiderations which appeared to him to be of such importance in the prefent ftate of that unhappy and diftracted country.

The

The Earl of Suffolk faid, he had come down for the purpose not of bringing the state of Ireland into difcuffion, but of asking fome very important queftions upon a fubject perhaps ftill more alarming, to which, after the prefent motion was difpofed of, he hoped that he fhould receive fatisfactory anfwers from the Noble Secretary of State.

Lord Grenville replied, that, in his opinion, the difcuffion into which the Noble Earl (Moira) had entered on a former day, and which on this day he had thought proper to renew, could not be entertained without a breach of a moit folemn compact, and a direct infringement of the rights of the independent Legiflature of Ireland. Whether the arguments used by him, in answer to the propofition which the Noble Earl had brought forward fome time ago with regard to Ireland, were childish or not, he had left it to the Houfe to determine. The Houfe had determined on that question, and he was perfectly fatisfied, from every thing that had happened fince, that no meature could have proved more mifchievous to the fifter kingdom, than the adoption of the propofition of the Noble Earl.

The Duke of Grafton contended, that the Noble Secretary, profeffing as he did to believe that the Motion of the Noble Earl (Moira) would have been accompanied with bad effects, was bound to fhew that the affairs of Ireland had been improved. fince its rejection by the meatures which his Majefty's Ministers were now acting. It had unfortunately happened that all the affurances and expectations held out by the Noble Secretary upon public affairs, had uniformly failed, and he was afraid that their conduct, in respect to Ireland, would add another inftance to the long catalogue of minifterial difgraces and of public difappointments.

Lord Grenville profeffed a readiness at all times to meet any difcuffion which any Noble Lord might think proper to bring forward, refpecting the conduct of his Majefty's Minifters, and expreffed a conviction that it would never fuffer from a comparifon with the mode in which their measures had been oppofed.

The Duke of Bedford faid, there was one part of the fpeech of the Noble Secretary of State which he did not understand.--He talked of the breach of a folemn compact. His Grace faid he knew of no folemn compact that had been made. If, how-. ever, it was contended that the Parliament of this country, using its influence with his Majefty to prevail on him to interpofe his good offices with the Irish Government, was a breach of a folemn compact, it was equally fo for the Parliament to vote fo large a fum of money to be expended in that country.

Lord Grenville explained, that the expreflion alluded to by the Noble Duke, was not ufed in reference to a pecuniary remit

No. 35.

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