1833.] the claims of the church?" He said, Do you suppose that that would settle it; do you suppose that if I paid you 35s. an acre, that I should not know that 5s. an acre went to a parson professing a religion that I do not profess: do you think I should not know, that if you did not pay the parson, I should have it for 30s. instead of 35s. an acre ?'" Of the length to which this combination against tithes has gone, it is unnecessary to multiply many proofs. That which M. Dupard says of Queen's County, may serve as a specimen for the whole country. "Have any tithes been recently paid in the Queen's County?—No. "Are they likely to be paid ?-Never; they will never pay tithe "Do you think that the resistance to tithes extends to Protestants as well as Catholics? The lower classes of Protes tants have been intimidated from paying tithe; they have been served with notices not to pay. person shall be turned out of his land ?— Yes, that is decided at a meeting of the committee previously concerted some days." And it is not the less material to observe, that these outrages commenced at a period, when there were an unusually small number of real grounds of complaint among the people, and in counties where there was a very great number of resident gentlemen, and the laws were administered with unusual lenity; when rents were low, wages high, and the people comfortable; decisive evidence, that it was not the redress of real evils, so much as the arts of Agitators, and the democratic spirit excited by the French Revolution and the Reform Bill, which has thrown the country into its present distracted state. Col. Rochfort put this in the clearest point of view. "Which do you think will ultimately prevail, the system of intimidation, or the terrors of the special commission ?—I think they have no respect for the laws at all. "Does this association for mischief prevail throughout the country?—Yes. "There have been murders and robberies committed under it ?—Yes. "So that the county is in the possession of that particular association ?—Yes, nearly so. "What do you conceive to be the object of this association from your acquaintance, which is considerable, with what is going on; what do you conceive to be the object of the association ?—It is a complete resistance to the existing laws; some of them say, they will have all the lands in the country in their hands again; some of the Whitefeet and Blackfeet say that. 66 "Have the goodness to describe shortly to the Committee in what state that county is with respect to disturbance ?— It has been in an exceedingly disturbed state; all kinds of outrages, what we call insurrectionary or Whiteboy outrages, going on; serving notices to give up land, and that upon the penalty of having their houses burned, or their own persons being murdered. Why do they seek to get arms in the way they do?—I heard for some time it was for the purpose of opposing the levying the tithes. "Have they any system of management, any committees ?—Yes, they have, amongst themselves; they meet in publichouses. "Do they investigate the cases and decide what house they will attack, or what individual they will ill-treat ?—Yes, they decide it some days previously to the attack. "Is it general through the county?— Yes, I think it is; some parts are more affected by it than others. "At what time did they first establish themselves?—I was abroad the whole of 1828 and 1829, and great part of 1830, but I understood it began in 1829; it was then checked, and began again more extensively in 1831. "To what do you attribute it ?-Remotely, I should say, to the general feeling of hostility between the ancient Irish and English, which has been transferred to the two religions, and that excited by various causes; the agitation for emancipation and tithes, and the various things of that kind, and the revolutions of Paris and Belgium. "When there is an attack made upon a man to give up his land, is it the result of an investigation of the case, and the decision of the committee, and an order that the "Then you mean there is a kind of indigenous spirit and feeling on the part of the people, originally hostile, and continuing as such, to the law ?—Yes, and to a great extent. "The Queen's County, till the period you refer to, was generally very quiet?— Yes, it was very quiet; and a great number of respectable gentry residing in it. I think one part of the object of the Agitators was to overturn as much as possible the influence of the country gentry. "Is not the county conspicuous for the number of resident gentry?—Yes. "And the good understanding that existed between them and the people? Yes. "And free from complaints of the conduct of the magistrates?—Yes; quite free from that, and very little cause of complaint of any other kind. "And the duty of the magistrates very fairly and honourably performed ?—Yes; I do not think they could have been better performed in any part of the world. "Then with regard to the rent, what has been the conduct of the gentry towards their tenants?-I think the rents charged by the head landlords are in general moderate; and I think the gentry have in very few cases acted against their tenants, and in none where there were not great arrears; and where they have done so, in all the cases that have come to my knowledge they have remunerated the tenants, and given them the means to quit the land or transport themselves, and left them nothing to complain of reasonably. "There were no grounds of complaint then in the county, of the conduct of the gentry in removing tenants?—No reasonable grounds, in my opinion; where any were removed, consideration was had for them. "Against what class are their efforts directed?-Against all the lower farmers who have arms; a portion of the Whitefeet might have gone for arms, but a great many committed robberies and burglaries, which all fall upon the poor. "In other cases, the attacks were upon farmers holding a few acres of ground ?— Yes; and frequently in the same family, when there were disputes in the family, mostly about a small quantity of ground. "Was there any committee managing and directing those proceedings?—I know nothing of my own knowledge; but it is impossible such a system could go on without it. "Do you think that the peasantry would have entered into this conspiracy themselves unless acted upon by external causes?-No. "You have stated that at no other time has improvement made greater progress? -Yes. "Do you not think that is a very ominous feature in the character of the present disturbance, as it removes it from any feeling of distress?—Yes, certainly. "And when every exertion has been made by the magistrates and gentry to make themselves as serviceable to the population as they can?-Yes, I think they have. "You have stated that the people Emancipation; state what was included were disappointed by the results of the in their notion of what was likely to result from it. They expected the abolition of tithes; it was not held out to them; I do not think it was held out to them during the struggle for emancipation, but I am sure they expected it, and a reduction of rents, and a revision of the grand jury laws, and different other advantages; I would be inclined to say that the peasantry themselves had rather a vague notion of the benefits to result from it; that some benefits would result they conceived, but their notions were ill defined. "A general indefinite good?—Yes. "Do you not think in that they included a repeal of the Union?-No, I do not think that they thought of it at that time. "That is a subsequent thing?—Yes, with the peasantry of the country certainly; not with others. "Do you not think that the disappointment of the peasantry at the settleproduced a feeling of exasperation on ment of the question of Emancipation has their minds which has determined them in agitating for themselves?-I think it is because they found no immediate benefits to follow. "And because they find no immediate benefits resulting from it, they are now resolved to agitate for themselves? Yes." This is exactly what we always maintained would take place, and 1833.] Ireland. what historical information would lead every one to expect. Where any concession is made to popular agitation, disappointment is sure to ensue when the object is gained, and this only makes the people more discontented, and augments the ge neral exasperation which prevails. The machinery erected for one object, is applied with more angry inclinations to another; and thus one concession to democratic violence leads to another, till the whole institutions of society are at length melted down in the revolutionary crucible. Of the ultimate objects to which the Association, now so general throughout Ireland, is directed, we have the following account from Hovenden Stapleton, Esq, a barrister, and magistrate of Queen's County. "How do you account for this association for illegal purposes spreading so extensively? It is not surprising it should spread so much in the collieries, the population being very great; the colliers are constantly in the habit of combining for a rise of wages; they drink excessively, and they are a people most easily contaminated, and likely to be led into such a system. "To what objects have their operations been directed?-In the first in stance, the taking of arms; during 1829 it was almost entirely confined to the taking of arms; after that there was some cessation, but in the last year their object seems to have been the settlement and disposition of land and property of almost every kind. "Do you consider that as their ultimate object?—Their ultimate object I conceive to be the disposition and settlement of land; to prevent any landlord taking land from a tenant, or preventing him doing what he pleases with his land. No. III. question in exciting the people to opposition? I believe a very strong part but the tithe question did not come into my part of the county; it was in the county of Carlow and the county of Kilkenny, where it seems to have been put an end to. "But the Roman Catholic clergy did take a very active part in exciting opposition to tithe?— Very active indeed. "Do you not think that that strengthened the general feeling of insubordination through the country?—Of course. "Are not the priests a little alarmed at the loss of influence they are beginning to feel?—I am sure they are. "And they are beginning to feel a little uneasy lest the people should get out of their hands altogether?-Probably So. "Is that the motive that influences the priests?—I cannot say that. "Do you think, if the Roman Catholic priests had been as active to repress the first outbreaking as they were to encourage it, that any disturbance would now exist? I think that they could have checked the disturbances in the beginning in my parish, had they co-operated with the magistrates. We had a very large meeting of magistrates very close to the residence of the Catholic priest. Sir John Harvey came from Dublin, and Colonel Evans from Kilkenny, on the part of Government, and several magistrates and gentlemen attended; and though the meeting was opposite the priest's house and he at home, he did not attend nor give his assistance; we memorialized the Government for troops and additional police, which displeased him very much. "Is the system governed by committees?-I have reason to think that it is. I think there is what they call a head committee, composed of seven members, who sit and discuss all matters; then there is a sub-committee under them, who receive orders from the head committee. The body at large are sworn to commit whatever may be ordered." Of the conduct of the priests in the excitement of this agitation, the same witness gives the following ac count: "Did the priests take no part in the tithe "You say that the tithes are extinguished; does that extend to church property as such, or the mode of paying it; do you think there is as much opposition to the payment of tithe as a rent-charge, as in the usual form?-Yes, I think in every shape. "So that in fact it is church property they consider to be extinguished?-They have got rid of the payment of the tithe, which is the only church property in my district." The supineness of Government in checking these outrages, and the consequent head which insubordination and disorder have acquired, has come out in spite of all their efforts to repress it, even from the witnesses whom they themselves cited. Mr Hovenden fully explains this subject. "Do you attribute the want of harmony and concurrence between the Go vernment and the resident gentry to any political feeling?—I do think the gentlemen in that part of the country have some political feeling against the present Government; I have none. "What does that arise out of?-They think there is a want of energy in the Government. "To what does that extend?-They let the country come into a state almost of open rebellion without adopting energetic measures. "Did not that state exist in other parts of Ireland under former Governments?-Not in the Queen's County. "If it existed in Clare and other counties, why should you accuse the present Government, if former Governments have been equally guilty?-The disturbances in Clare commenced in the present Government. I am acquainted with the county of Clare, having property there, and I know the feeling amongst the magistrates and gentry there is the same as in the Queen's County; that it was in consequence of the supineness of Government that disturbances got to such a head there. "May not former Governments have been equally culpable in this matter?The state of Ireland was not so much convulsed under former Governments. "You were asked whether that want of concurrence may not be attributable to political feelings?—Yes. "You have been asked whether the present disturbed state of the country is not owing to the misconduct of former Governments; have former Governments ever in so marked a way held up the gentlemen of the country and the magistrates of the country, as objects of reprobation, in the manner that the present Government have done?-I know that the Queen's County has never been in a state like the present under former Governments, nor at any former period have I known the same want of confidence in the Government as the magistrates now have. "Has it been the conduct of former Governments to depreciate the conduct of the yeomanry and landlords ?—No; I think that breach is wider than it has ever been before; there is that want of confidence and co-operation between the Government and the magistrates, which I do not remember in former times. "Do you find that this hostility to the present Government exists among those who have been their political friends, as well as those who are known to be their political opponents?—I think it is very general." Major-General Crawford, who was present, both at the rebellion in 1798, and the disturbances in these times, and who is, consequently, so well able to mark the features of resemblance between them, gives the following interesting account of the influence of the priests over their flocks, and the share they had in exciting several of the worst disturbances in the county of Kilkenny. "You have stated that, in 1798, in consequence of the peculiar position in which you were, as presiding at several courtsmartial, you had an opportunity of judging of the character of the Catholic clergy, and from those opportunities you have formed the worst opinion of them?Undoubtedly, I speak of that. "Have you any grounds for considering the Catholic clergy of the present day to be similar in character to those you observed, admitting that what you state is correct, in 1798?—I was a member, not president of the courts-martial. I have a strong impression on my mind that they are exactly similar in point of principle to those of 1798; and I have had private information from people in whom I think I could confide, that their plans are to overturn the Protestant interests of this country, and to possess themselves of Protestant property, and raise their church upon the ruin of ours; and that is my firm impression. "Have you any facts upon which those impressions are grounded?—I have mentioned that I received private information upon the subject, which I could not with any degree of honour or propriety divulge. "Then the whole of these impressions are grounded upon private information ? -No; they are grounded on the former circumstances, in addition to private information. "What are the circumstances of their conduct to which you refer in speaking of the clergy of the present day?— From their great influence over their flocks, I am persuaded that no improper conduct could originate in their parish without their approbation. "You think that every single crime committed by any Catholics in any parish in Ireland must solely be attributed to the influence that the parish priest has over them?-I am sure he knows every crime committed, from confession, and I am sure he could prevent it if it was his wish to do so. "Do you believe he knows every crime before a person goes to confession? -How could that be possible? I am sure until after confession he could not know it; but from the general informa tion he receives, he will know of things going on in the parish. "Do you think that the present combination against tithe is likely to extend to other objects?—Yes, I do; I think it will extend to rents very speedily, and every species of property. "Do you not think that the present interference in the letting of farms and the management of property is the beginning of it ?—Already they will not suffer any persons to hold lands in the neighbourhood of Castlecomer, but with the approbation of the Whitefeet. "Do you think that a transition to the non-payment of rent is very natural ?— Yes; I think when one law is infringed on with impunity, other laws will necessarily be infringed. "Do you think that the toleration of any aggression is a toleration and a bounty upon farther aggression?—Yes; I think it excites to it. "Do you think that the present combination will proceed, when it has disposed of one claim, to settle another?—I am satisfied of it. "Did anybody at that time doubt that the priests could instantly have quashed this disturbance at the outset ?-The people would not have assembled without their excitement; and they could have quashed it with as much ease as I lay down my hand; gentlemen here may not believe what I state, but I am perfectly persuaded of it. "Do you conceive there is any similarity between the present combination, which appears to have been entered into on the part of the disturbers, and other combinations during other disturbed periods in 1796 or 1798?-I think that the present combination is different to 1798 considerably. "In what respect?—They were then a very mixed body; the commencement was with the Presbyterians; it extended to some of the Established Church, but very few, and when it came into the Roman Catholic country it was embraced by them very warmly; but the present combination is among the Roman Catholics, and it seems to gain ascendency in the country, and that the object is to gain the property of the Protestant possessors, and to make this an independent Catholic country; this is my impression. "What was the object of the tumultuous meeting at Castlecomer in January last? It was to get rid of the tithes. "Was that the beginning of it?—Not altogether the commencement; they had assembled in two or three instances before; they had assembled at Loughlin Bridge and at Dr Butler's, and at two or three other places, I believe; but the great assemblage was at the two bridges. "Did the priests appear, from the result of that meeting, to have obtained a considerably increased dominion over the people? There is not the least doubt of it, from the proceedings of that day, that their influence over the country was paramount; in fact now, except in the garrison towns, they are the only legislators. The Whitefeet laws are enforced either by severe beatings, or by attempts at assassination or murder, so that the common law has no effect whatever. Out of the garrison towns the whole of the country is under the influence of the mob; no gentleman can go out unarmed with safety. "Under the influence of that description of persons you describe as having assembled at Castlecomer?-It originated from that mob. I think a general combination has taken place since that, and a more dangerous kind of conspiracy has originated. "Of what sort?-I think that at that period the object was to get rid of the tithe. Since that their ulterior objects are to compel the Protestants to quit the country, and to get rid of the English connexion. I think the object is separation. I think these are the ulterior objects that they did not think of in the first instance. |