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give a sanction to a version made by an authority which the Catholic Church in spirituals does not acknowledge.

Is it a part of the Catholic discipline, that each copy of the Catholic version of the Scriptures partakes in some way of the sacred character ?---Certainly.

Suppose a selection were agreed to by the Catholic prelates, and that the books in which that selection was printed were different from the Scriptures, and were mere coinmon school books, do you consider that the difficulty would, be removed?-If it contamed merely the texts of the sacred

Scriptures, it appears to me the difficulty

would be the same.

In England we generally permit the

faithful to read the authorised Catholic version in the vulgar tougue, which are always accompanied with notes.

Protestants, and beg to add that such are the occupations of the Catholic Clergy on Sundays, in the public chapels, that on those days they would not have leisure to attend to the instruction of those children according to their wants.

And you could not allow children to be instructed by the laymen in the Catholic church in the articles of their faith-Certainly we could not, consistently with the practice and discipline of our Church.

On occasion of establishing a school at Shadwell, for Catholics as well as ProPoynter whether Catholics could contestants, Mr. Butler enquired of Dr. scientiously avail themselves of this be Befit. The Dr. answered him, that such subjects were out of his sphere, as a layman.His (Mr. B.'s) interference was irregular.

What was your reply to the inquiry ?--Considering that the reading lessons were to be taken from the Protestant version of the Scriptures, I answered Mr. Butler, that he knew that I should act in direct repugnance to the constant and universal practice of the Catholic Church, were I chidren, in a public school, of a version to approve of the reading by Catholic of the sacred Scriptures emanating from a body not in communion with the Catholic Church.

Do you apprehend any danger is likely to result from educating the lower orders without communicating at the same time religious instruction?- do consider that the educating the tower orders without giving them any religious instruction, may be rather dangerous than beneficial to them; I beg to observe that I consider the pre servation or correction of the morals of the lower orders is the principal object we should have in view in their education; and I am persuaded this end could never be obtained without religious instruction; and on this subject, I express my firm Was Mr. Butler sufficiently acquainted conviction, that in order to preserve or correct the morals of the lower orders, they to know, previous to any arrangement be with the principles of the Catholic Church must not only be taught their duty to God ing made with the Protestant gentlemen at and to society, but the great motives of per- Shadwell, that bis proposition in regard to forming their duty must be strongly en- the introduction of the Protestant version forced, which can only be done, in my of the New Testament into that school opinion, by the instructions and exhorta- could not be assented to by his ecclesiastitions which they receive from their pas- cal superiors-I was persuaded that he tors; and on this ground, I consider that was sufficiently acquainted with the prin it is in vain to expect that the moralsciples of the Catholic Church in that reof the lower classes will be improved, unless education comprises religious instruction. .

Nevertheless, as a Roman Catholic bishop, could you consent to any attempt to better their moral condition by the instruction of Protestants, or mast you not, consistently with your duty as Vicar Apostolic, refuse your assent to any attempts of the kind made by Protestants As a Catholic bishop, I do not judge that their morals could be improved but by religious instruction, and I could not consent for them to receive it from Protestants.

If children were allowed to attend their own ecclesiastical instructors, in addition to such education in schools, you still think it would be objectionable if given by Protestants?-l object to the religions or moral instruction of the children given by

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gard, and there fore in my auswer to him I referred to his own conviction, by saying,

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You know that I should act in direct repugnance to the constant and universal practice of the Catholic Church," &c. I may add, that I conceived that the ques tion proposed me by Mr. Butler, whether Catholes could conscientiously seud their children to the school? was which should rather have been proposed a question to me by the clergy who direct the consciences of the people within their district, and therefore I did not think it my duty, nor Butler on that question. prudent, to give a direct answer to Mr.

And yet, Mr. Butler humbly thought, that what had been tolerated in France, might be endured in England. He gives the following answer.

minds and affections of the children, and to make religion and their duty, as far as it can be, pleasing to them; and to bring down to their understandings all the main principles and duties of the Christian reli gion, according to the principles of the Church of England. Of course the degree which this instruction is understood, depends upon the child...

How has it happened in France that they have had the New Testatament in the vulgar tongue?--In point of fact, there has not, for the last century, been in France (as I have informed myself from, good anthority) any objection to reading the Old or New Testament in the French tongue, or without notes, by any age or any des-in cription of people.

Surely, the accusation is proved, that charges the Catholic priests with preventing the bettering the condition of their poor. The poor of their flock treat the better informed solicit—the more liberal disdain the shackles-yet still the priests continue to livet them on their people. O for some monk, for some cardinal, for some pope, whose energetic mind should burst these bonds, and no longer suffer the prevalence of such atrocious abuse! They take away the key of knowledge, says a sacred writer, and those who were entering in they hindered,

From this too painful scene, we turn with pleasure to the enlightened sentiments of a divine branded as a heretic, by the TRUE church; and deservedly

too, or we are mistaken:---The Rev. Daniel Wilson, minister of St. John's Chapel, Bedford Row.

This gentleman describes the almost incalculable measure of good resulting from a Sunday School---" because all our instruction is founded on the specific principles of Christianity, the fear of God, and the revelation of his will in his word;"---and much of this is communicated by lay teachers.

Of what description of character, and what class of society, are the teachers who volunteer their services?-They are per sons who regularly occupy seats in the chapel, and live in the neighbourhood; the wives and sous and daughters of persous engaged in trade, or in the profession of the law; most of them very respectable people.

1 never knew any poor family become yery vicious or miserable who observed the

Lord's day; and I never knew a poor fa mily happy, contented or virtuous, that

did not observe it.

Do you think any danger is to be appre hended by giving children knowledge, without communicating religious instruction?-Certainly there is a danger; because you give them information and a greater power, without at the same time a principle to direct that power. But when you teach them to read, and at the same time implant the main principles of Christianity, and an attachment to the Church of England, and to the worship of God on a Sunday, you not only give them knowledge, but the principles to use it aright; you keep them from pride and self-elevation, and from that abuse of knowledge, in might possibly be tempted. Besides, in reading improper books, to which they

our schoo's we give the children books on which to employ their knowledge; and, above all, we endeavour from the be ginning to make them understand that we give them knowledge on purpose to euable them to know their duty better, and serve God better in this world, and be prepared for heaven, and His favour in

another world.

As a clergyman, you see no impropriety in respectable laymen visiting the poor upon that plan ?~1 rejoice to have their aid; it requires of course judgment in the selection of your visitors, as it does in every other thing of the same nature; but it is a clergyman in fact multiplying himself into twenty or thirty persons, who go about to do for him what he cannot do himself.

Do you consider that the parents of the children are considerably improving, by Do those voluntary teachers endeavour associating with their children who attend to give religious instruction to the children, your school? There can be no doubt of as well as yourself?-They chiefly do this, it, in the several respects which I menmy own attendance being of course very tioned in an answer to a former question; limited; their objects is in hearing them for instance, bringing them to attend divine the lessons they have set them on the pre-worship themselves is an extremely im ceding Sunday, to explain them, and give them religious instruction.

You apprehend they are capable of bringing down religious truths to the understanding of the children?-Quite so; their object is particularly to interest the

portant benefit; another instance, is the correcting in them the habit of profane swearing, and of a variety of other vices, which those children are taught on a Sabbath morning to abhor, as violating the commands of God.

and the progress of the children in religion, are more watched over, than in any great general schools can be the case. So that if National schoo's should spread over the whole Metropolis. I still think they would not supersede Sunday school instruction. As to a plan of mere mechanical instruction, without the great principles of Christianity being also inculcated, cannot but view it as preg

Do you not think that the educating of cular regard for them, in small numbers. the poor, and their acquirement of know-There also the observance of the Sabbath, ledge, will tend much to lessen the poor rates of parishes ?—I should think very much; because it tends directly to lessen those vices which throw the poor upon our parishes, and creates that proper spirit of independence and desire to do for them selves which directly leads to exertion. It gives them also the feeling that they are men, and reasonable beings; it raises them above the mere animal, and gives them a desire to appear creditable in their neigh-uant with very dangerous consequences to bourhood and connections; it qualifies the pubge. children for filling up stations which they otherwise could not fill; and it particularly forms that habit of industry and of regular employment which bars out many of those vices which interrupt the happiness of the poor, and reduce them to abject dependence.

Does it fall within your knowledge that there is a great want of accommodation for the poor in places of worship in the Establishment?—Most deplorable. In the parish where I reside there are about 30,000 inhabitants, and there are only, so far as remember, four places of worship in the Established Church, viz. the mother-church of St. Andrew's Holborn, the church of St. George the Martyr, and two chapels. I do not suppose these four places would hold above 6,000 or 7,000 persons altogether, leaving 24,000 without the possibility of attending divine worship in the Church of England in our parish.

Have you formed any opinion of the comparative merits of the Lancasterian and the National system of education?—I should say, that certainly I conceive the benefits of knowledge to the lower orders to be so incalculably valuable, that I would risk any thing as to the mode of communicating it. in order that they might receive that benefit. At the same time I think it o high importance to inspire the great mass of your population already members of the Church of Eugland, with a fixed and en lightened regard to their own religious establishment; and I consider further, the particular principles of religion upon which our church is founded, to be so essential to that religion, that I regard the National system, when it can be obtained, as having incomparable advantages over the British and Foreign system. I am of opinion also, that the present system of Sunday schools, and especially schools for religious instruction on Sundays, is necessary where they can be had, because there you have your children addressed individually and specifically, by persons who have a parti

Do you not think that the continuance of the

Lancaste 40 piau preserves a competition?-1 should think so. And yet it is an awkward thing to say so, when approve of the one so much more than of the other; and yet I must think, considering what human nature is, and how things generally go on, it must be the case that the continuance of the Lancasterian schools is necessary to preserve the National ones in their full vigour.

And you think that compeition is bene ficial to both systems, in promoting activity and industry ?-Yes, I should think it is.

of England have the countenance and Is it said, "the clergy of the Church support of the state." Be it so what countenance, what support, other than general liberty, which nobody withholds from the Catholics, have other dissenters? How do they manage? What is their character? Mr. James Millar

states it in these words:

What objection have the Dissenters to send their children to the schools upon the National plan, supposing they were not oiged to attend church on a Sunday, or to learn the catechism? I believe almost all the Dissenters that I know any thing of, provide for the education of their own children; they must be very poor indeed if they do not.

Are you a Dissenter yourself?—I am. Our principal object is rather for others to be educated; we wish Catholics, and others, completely to get the benefit of instruction.

Do you mean that all Protestant Dissenters have the means of education for their children, of all classes? I know of none of them that do not get their children structed, of the lowest order of all that I kuow.

Are you not alluding to some particular class?-No, I speak generally.

Do you mean that all over London the

Dissenters of the lowest classes have the | sert, than for an Irishman, in the memeans of education?—I should think, un-tropolis of the British empire, under the less they were very poor indeed, generally controul of his Priests!

30.

What effects have you observed resultDoes it not follow, that if Dissenters ing from education upon the savage nations have the means of education, every person in Southern Africa?-I should first state, has the means of education?--I mean the there are part of three nations who are caDissenters in general; I speak of the per-pable of reading-the Hottentots, the Gri

sous who are careful in providing means of education for their children.

Do you allude to the poorer classes of Dissenters?-There are none so very poor that they could not do something if they

chose.

Do you mean that Dissenters have better meaus of education for the poor, than members of the Church?-Not so much that: but, I think they make greater exertious; I do not think they have better

means.

If this be true, what prevents the Catholic from doing the same? How long shall the difference continue to the disadvantage of the sons of St. Peter? The Irish, for instance, do not want talent: all the world does them that justice. Accident has given a spur to that talent: accident of another kind may, and, under Providence, will, give a scope to it; and future historians will have to congratulate the sister island on the return of learning, respectability, and distinction, to the natives of Erin. Says Mr. Campbell, known to the lic by his "Travels in Africa,"

One circumstance that led the Catholics in Ireland in a certain district, I think it was in the vicinity of Belfast, to wish to obtain reading for part of their family, was the issuing the one-shilling, the two-shilling, and five-shilling notes; there were instances of men going with their cow to market, and bringing home a five-shilling note iustead of a five-pound one; in consequence of this, they resolved that at least one of their children should be able to read, to accompany them to market, to distinguish notes; the priests could never successfully oppose that measure; and that was the commencement in Ireland of a desire among the lower orders of Catholics to read.

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quas, and the Namacquas; a considerable number of those nations have been taught by the missionaries to read, and, from the statement of those missionaries when I was present with them, they considered their reading as particularly conducible to promote civilization.

I got twelve of the Hottentots who accompanied me in the interior of Africa, on our return to Cape Town, fully instructed in the British system of education, on purpose that they might counsence, upon that plan, a school at Bethe sdorp, which is about 550 miles from the Cape.

About four months ago, I received a letter respecting that school, stating that upwards of sixty Hottentots, who ten months before knew not their letters, could read the Dutch Testament as well as the misstories.

You found the Hottentots as quick in receiving their education, as the people in England?-Nearly so; it brings them into a new world to be able to kuow what a

book says, it is completely a new world. I may mention here, that I have found nothing so difficult as to convey to the pub-conception of a savage how a book spake. I attempted with the King of Lattakoo, to make him understand it, but he and his principal men all shook their heads, and said it was impossible to understand it; I took a journal that lay before me, in which I had inserted, from the lips of his uncle, the names of his forefathers, who had been kings before him (the goverament is hereditary;) this I read to the king and his chief men, on which they perceived that I had formerly stated the truth, but had no idea how the book gave me that information; the King inquired if it would be possible for them and their children, by the instructions of a white man, to understand what books “said" (there is no other way of conveying reading, they can form no idea of what reading Certainly, the Irish are not inferioris, it is only speaking;) he and his people to the Hottentots in respect to talent; but, they are in respect to the means of cultivating that talent. To say all in one word, there is a better chance for a wild Hottentot, a Kaffer, or a Bosh-man, that he should acquire instruction in his de

seemed highly gratified when I stated, that arrival of a teacher, they should be able to understand reading as well as myself. The missionaries have not yet arrived there, so that I can give no idea of the success.

in the course of a few moons after the

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