count of their sympathising with him in two very great points; they were like him, all fond of women and wine(laughter, with cries of order!) They were a fine people, had a high spirit, and as good taste as spirit-(a laugh) -there were, however, matters of false faith in their creed that no credibility could swallow—(a laugh).

Sir John Newport said, that the apology would have been more correct, if the honourable gentleman had represented the Irish Catholics as claiming the title-deeds of their own estates, and not privileges upon the estates of any other person. As to the securities required, he thought that the common securities for their common constitution onght to bear equally on all parts of the community, and that no portion of that community should be compelled to give extraordinary securities for the general safety, on account of their particular mode of worship. His right honourable friend (Mr. Fitzgerald) had put this part of the question on its true grounds. The simple fact was this, take away the restrictions and you give yourselves the securities-(Ilear, hear!) There were no test laws in Ireland, and yet were the Protestant Dissenters disloyal? But the danger should be first shewn. He agreed with the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Canning) in thinking that the onus probandi lay on those who made the exception to the rule, and not on those who pleaded the rule against the supposed exception, as to what fell from the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Ryder), expressive of his wish that the Catholics might be yet freed from their spiritual bondage, and when he (Mr. Ryder) might concede to their claims. He (Sir John Newport) could only say in answer to this, that he could not foresee any high probability to the Catholics of Ireland turning Protestants. As to the bigotted objections on the ground of faith, he would ask what it was that kept them out of that House, but their regard to those very obfigations to the sanction of which some bigots would represent them as indifferent?-(Hear, hear!) He could not sit down without adverting to the abominable publication referred to by Mr. Canning. He must, however, remind the House, that this, bad as it was, was a solitary publication(Hear!) There were others, and had been other such at the period of every such discussion as the present-(Hear !) He should only say, that whoever they may be with whom such works originate, whether high or low their patrons, that more fatal measures could not well be devised, and that

were such plans to be successful in reviving the savage cry of "No Popery" in this country, it would be soon and awfully answered from Ireland by one cry throughout that island of "No Union-separation."—(Hear!)

Mr. Marryatt said, that as the present Ministers had conceded the Orders in Council to the complaints of one thousand manufacturers in this country, they could not now well refuse to concede the Catholic question of five millions of their fellow subjects in Ireland. It was indeed difficult

for a Ministry that once entered upon the system of conces sion to make a stand-if men would desert those who followed them, they will, in return, be deserted by them. Since they had conceded the Orders in Council, upon which they ought to have made a stand, he hoped that they would not refuse to concede the Catholic question, upon which no such stand could be made~(Hear!)

Mr. Martin (of Galway) expressed a wish that the motion of the right honourable gentleman had gone the full length of pledging the House to consider the question with the view of granting the prayer of the Catholic Petition.

Mr. Matthew Montague hoped for a greater share of the indulgence of the House than he usually experienced, as he was about to state his sentiments with frankness upon a question on which many gentlemen seemed to entertain views most opposite to his. He regretted the want of that powerful advice which had hitherto so ably, and in bis mind so successfully, combated all the reasons advanced in favour of this innovation upon the Constitution. He should feel it his duty to take the sense of the House upon it. The Catholics themselves had declared in their late resolutions, that nothing short of unconstitutional emancipation could satisfy them. He contended, therefore, that the present motion, instead of conciliating the Catholics, or setting that question at rest, must necessarily have a direct contrary tendency. He would not be disposed to withhold from the Catholics the privileges they were claiming, unless he saw greater danger likely to arise from the concessions than from withholding it. Would they be able to stop there? Were they disposed to go the length of repealing the Test and Corporation Laws, and to grant equalization of suffrage? For these they must be prepared to grant, or they ought not to accede to the present resolutions. He deplored extremely on the present occasion, the absence of that vigorous

spirit which belonged to his right honourable friend now no 377 more. Nothing gave him so much pain since his loss, as to see not one concession made to his political opponents, but a whole string of concessions-Hear, hear! from the Opposition!) Such a conduct afforded no grounds for hoping that that vigour and that spirit of resistance would be displayed which were so necessary in a country where there were so many wild ideas afloat-Hear, hear!) In his opinion the prosperity of this country had not arisen from the perfection of its establishments, for none of its establishments were perfect. A stand should be made against innovation, otherwise the same consequences might be expected to follow that had been lately witnessed in France. He should therefore vote against the motion.

Mr. Parnell wished to give such practical information with respect to the question of what securities ought to be demanded from the Catholics, as it was in his power to furnish. The truth was, that no danger existed, and consequently no securities were wanting. He had in his hands a document respecting the influence possessed by the Pope, which came from the highest ecclesiastical authority. The first case in which the Pope had any authority was in dispensing from prohibited degrees; and that was merely in cases, particularly pointed out, to which the power of the Catholic priests did not extend. Secondly, In deciding on appeals from the Catholic clergy in points of dispute among themselves. The number of appeals of this nature had been always very few, and were becoming more and more so. Thirdly, In the appointment of bishops. The appointment of Catholic bishops in Ireland was substantially a domestic appointment. The interest of the Pope was in fact almost nothing; and he had never interfered except in one instance, when the Government thought proper to interfere in an appointment.

Sir John Nichol had yet seen no reason to alter the opinions he had formerly delivered in that House. If it could be made appear to him that the extension of political power to the Catholics could be conceded without endangering the establishments in Church and State, be would most willingly consent to it; but he could not see how any such concession could be made with safety; and entertaining such opinions, it was impossible for him to concur with the resolutions now moved, which appeared to him unnecessary. For was it not in the power of any individual Member at any time to VOL. III.-1812. 3 C

force the consideration of this subject on Parliament, if from circumstances it should become necessary? Was it necessary for Parliament to pledge themselves to consider it? This Resolution was neither more nor less than deluding the House into a pledge to concession. And what were the concessions to be granted? What were the securities, what were the guards to be received in return? He had yet heard of none. These concessions might lead to a Catholic establishment in Ireland (Hear!)-they might possibly lead to a Catholic ascendancy in the United Kingdom-(a laugh)-and possibly, some time or other, to an establishment on the Throne of a Catholic Monarch-(a laugh). He wished to guard the House against being committed to a pledge to the Catholics. He conjured gentlemen to reflect whether this was fair conduct to the Catholics themselves, by leading them to indulge expectations which could only lead to disappointment. It was much more manly conduct towards the Catholics to declare their intention not to advance, till they were certain they could do so with security and safety to the Constitution. He could not sufficiently deprecate the entering blindly on an indefinite pledge.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in acceding to the Resolution of his right honourable friend (Mr. Canning), wished it to be understood that he did so without pledging himself to any specific measure. In supporting the motion of the right honourable gentleman, he would go no further than to say this, that he thought something should now be done. He wished to make a few observations on the subject of the charge of vacillation brought against the present Ministry by an honourable gentleman on the third row behind him (Mr. Matthew Montague). This charge could only apply to their conduct in the case of the Barracks, of the Prince's Secretary, and of the Orders in Council. He had already explained why it had been thought proper to defer the erection of the Barracks at present; and with regard to the Orders in Council, he begged the House to remark that great concessions were made by his lamented friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whatever reasons there might be for maintaining the Orders in Council, they were certainly also the occasion of great distress. On the one hand the distress was immediate, and on the other hand the danger remote. These instances of concessions only prove that Government wish to regulate their measures according to circumstances, and not

obstinately to persevere in measures after the circumstances which dictated them no longer exist. With regard to the Catholics, time had already made great changes in their situation. They ought to consider also the changes that had taken place in the situation of the Roman Catholic religion itself. The ecclesiastical and civil establishments of Europe had been wholly overturned. All that they knew at present was, that the Pope was the first Bishop in the French Empire-undoubtedly because Rome was the second city of that empire-(a laugh)-and whoever held that office, would, in effect, be a nominee of Buonaparte. The Catholics of Ireland where, he said, dail y become better and better informed.

Mr. Bankes hoped it would never be a point of honour with any Government to persevere in measures after they were convinced of their impropriety. Political was not always the same, but depended on circumstances. The motion, in truth, embraced so many objects of high importance to the propriety of the state, that it ought to be acceded to, even though in following it up considerable sacrifices should be required. Securities, however, of the most liberal nature ought to be demanded, and he would not be satisfied unless the Roman Catholics would consent that the same religious power should be granted to the King of Great Britain, as in other countries was allowed to other potentates; above all, he should be sorry to see the Toleration Acts, the great bulwarks of the Constitution, removed or even assailed.

Mr. Grattan and Lord Castlereagh rose at the same time. The former obtained possession of the House. He expressed his complete concurrence with what had fallen from Mr. Bankes, on the change of sentiment on the part of Ministers, since it frequently happened that measures which at one time were dangerous, at another were expedient. Many instances might be stated where men of the most enlightened understandings and purest hearts had altered their opinions on various questions, partly from more ample investigation, partly from a change in the circumstances of the times, in the temper of the people, or the condition of the country; and if now Government was disposed to recant some of their former sentiments, he would not so much call it a victory" obtained by their antagonists, as a triumph of Ministers over themselves (Hear, hear!) He recommended to General Matthew to withdraw his Amendment, which could be pro