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copy of the questions put to her and of her Lisle, who had read and signed her de. answers, as she had wrillen the whole position, seems to have thought it necessary down, immediately after the examination to guard against this; for, upon her going took place. He also entered into an ex- home, she wrote down the answers as conplanation as to the nalure of the animad- tained in her deposition, and she put to versions which he had made upon the con- them the questions, by which those anduct of the Four Lords; and said, that he swers were drawn forth. This she rehad not accused them of putting a false garded as an act of justice due to Her deposition upon paper; that he had not Royal Mistress, and, as appears from her accused them of any fabrication; that he Letter to Mr. Whitbread, she immediately had not said, that they had been guilty of gave Her Royal Highness a copy of the any falsification of testimony; but, that he whole of the examination, in question and had said, that leading questions were put, answer; and, as you will perceive, Her and that, if the evidence had been inserted Royal Highness says, in one part of her by question and answer, instead of putting defence, that, in such a case, the quesdown the answers only, Mrs. Lisle's tes- tions as well as the answers ought to have timony would have appeared in a very dif- been subjoined to the Report. ferent light from what it did ; and this ap- Upon this second point, the Lord Chief pears to have been the impression on the Justice defied any man to cite an instance, mind of Mrs. Lisle herself; for, other in which the minutes of a Judge had been wise, why did she write down the ques- taken down in any other way than that in tions and answers upon going home from which Mrs. Lisle's deposition had been the Commissioners ?
taken down ; and, in the House of ComThe main points to be considered here mons, Mr. Whitbread was told, that he are, first, whether leading questions ought ought to have known, from his attendance to have been put by the Four Lords upon at the Quarter Sessions, that such was the such an occasion ; secondly, whether they universal practice; and that, therefore, he ought to have reported the evidence in ought to have considered it as proper ia question and answer, or only in the an- this case. swers.
Now, observe, it must here be supposed, Mr. Whitbread has, by the writers in that the reprovers of Mr. Whitbread spoke sone of the news-papers, as well as by the either of depositions or examinations preFour Lords, been charged with ignorance, vious to trial; or, of examinations bebecause he complained of the putting of fore a court and jury; and, I am of opileading questions. It is very well known, nion, that neither of these furnishes a case that, what is called a leading question is in point. As to the first, the examinasometimes intended or has an obvious ten- tions thus taken do not serve as the ground dency to draw from a witness that which of any final decision ; the party accused is not true; or, at least, to point out to him may be held to bail or committed upon what to say; and, such questions are not them; but, he is afterwards to be tried; allowed to be put by the advocate on whose the whole is to be heard over again before side the witness is brought; but that any other magistrales and before jurors, who question may be put by the adverse advo- are to decide upon the case; but, who are cate, or by the Judge, because they cannot be not to decide, lill they themselves have suspected of any desire to tutor the with heard the witnesses speak ; till they themness. Therefore, as applicable to the selves have heard the questions as well as present case, Lord Ellenborough is report the answers. In the case of Mrs. Lisle's ed to have said, that " nothing could im- deposition, there was no after examination " peach the putting of leading questions by to take place. The King, to whom the " the Commissioners, who could have no deposition was sent along with the Report " object but the truth.” No : certainly. upon it, was to form his judgment upon God forbid that I should say, that they the answers only. The difference here is had uny object but the truth; but, still, so manifest and so important that it needs when a deposition, consisting, in part, of nothing further to make you fully sensible answers to leading questions, came to be of it. published to the world, such deposition As to examinations before a court and might be understood in a sense different jury, it is very true, that the Judge makes from that in which a simple declaration, a minute of the answers only. When he or narration, of the witness would be un- sums up the evidence, he seldom says a derstood, and, indeed, in this case, Mrs. word about the questions, and merely tells the jury, that the witness has sworn thus | House of Commons, for instance, this is and thus, repeating, as nearly as possible, the practice ; and, the reason of it appears the words of the witness; but, observe, to be this: that the House itself, who is to though the Judge does not minute down decide upon any special report of their the questions ; though he does not state Committees, are not present to hear the the questions to the jury; the jury 'have examinations; and, therefore, must have HEARD THEM ALL ; and, when they question as well as' answer to enable them are told by the Judge, that the witness has to judge correctly of the real value and said so and so, they have fresh in their amount of the evidence. And, as to trials mind the question in answer to wlrich he so that are published, the question, as well as said ; and that, hy that means, they are the answer, is invariably given, as being enabled to give to the answer its precise absolutely necessary to give the public a value, which no one who has not heard clear insight of the matter.
The fact apo the question can be able to de.
pears to me to be this; that, where the You will please to bear in mind, that it party who is to decide is not present at the was the King who was to decide upon Mrs. examination, the question as well as the Lisle's testimony: It was to briin, that the answer is necessary to the ends of fáir deFour Lords made their report upon that cision. The Four Lords, looking upon evidence, and that it was to bim, that her theinselves apparently as judges or magisdeposition was sent. And, it is necessary trates, followed the usual practice of judges for you to keep in mind also, that Mrs. or magistrates; but, they do not appear to Lisle was one of the four witnesses, men- have adverted to the circumstance of the tioned at the close of the Report, as having king not being present as jurors are; and, given 'testimony calculated to give rise, as to the capacity of magistrate, they did, and, indeed, which must necessarily give unfortunately for the Princess and forturise, to very unfavourable interprelations nately for Lady Douglas, soon find, that as to the conduct of the Princess. The they were not acting in that capacity. other three of these four witnesses, Cole, The vast difference between a report of Bidgood, and Fauny Lloyd, we have seen evidence in question and answer, and one enough of before: but Mrs. Lisle, a lady only in the answers, will appear in a moof unimpeached character, who had been ment, if we take a passage froin this very | with the Princess for many years, and who evidence of Mrs. Lisle, in which, for inhas remained with her alınost up to this stance, she says ; time, was, and is, worthy of serious at- " At Lady Sheffield's Her Royal Hightention.
ness paid more attention to Mr. It was the King, you will perceive, who " Chester than to the rest of the Gom. was to decide upon the value of every ex- pany. I knew Her Royal Highness pression of Mrs. Lisle, and the King was so walk out alone with Mr. Chester not present, as a juror is, to hear the
bo twice in the morning; once a short fions as well as the answers ; and, there- s time it rained - the other not an hout fore, as Mr. Whitbread contended, the 66--not long. Mr. Chester is a pretty King had not the best means of arriving
young man.' at a just opinion of the value of Mrs. Lisle's Now, this, though quite sufficient for a evidence. The same might be said of the judge, or for a jury, who had heard the public. They saw only the answers; and, questions, must have, on mere readers of though the Four Lords did not publish the the deposition, a very different effect from depositions, the depesitions were publish that which would naturally be produced by ed; the auswers of Mrs. Lisle were pub. the reading of the same thing in question lished; and, therefore, Mr. Whitbread and answer ; thus: thought it just; he thought it necessary to At Lady Sheffield's did Her Royal Higha right decision by the people, that the ness pay more attention to Mr. Chesquestions as well as the answers should be ter than to the rest of the company? publicly known.
Yes.—Did you know Her Royal When it was contended, that Judges in Highness walk out alone with Mr. their minutes and Justices in their exami- Chester?-Yes ; she walked out twice nations took down and recorded only the in the morning : once a short time it answers of witnesses, it might have been rained the other not an hour-not recollected, that, in other cases, the ques- long. -Is Mr. Chester a handsome tions as well as the answers are taken young man?-He is pretty. down. In trials before Committees of the You see, my friend, the statement is precisely the same in words ; but, the im- /" flirling ;” and, in another place she calls pression it conveys is very different indeed. the conduct of the Princess “ ONLY a As the story stands in the deposition, " flirting conduct.” The word to flirt stripped of the form of question and answer, means, in its proper sense, to banter or it would appear to come voluntarily from jeer. I know not, for my part, what other Mrs. Lisle; and the circumstance of Mr. sense can be given to it; and, therefore, all Chester being a prelly young man would that Mrs. Lisle says here is, that the naturally, in the mind of the mass of read- Princess behaved with Captain Manby like ers, appear to have occurred to Mrs. Lisle a woman who likes bantering and joking.. herself as the CAUSE of the Princess's -Lord preserve all our wives froin such altention to him more than to the rest of the a scrutiny! I am really afraid, that it company, and also as the CAUSE of the would be too much even for those most walks with him alone. Therefore, though amiable and most virtuous of creatures, the it was the duty of the four Lords to use all sleek sisterhood of Pennsylvania. And yet, possible means to get at the truth as to every as you see by the Report, Mrs. Lisle's évicircumstance; and though they, in re- dence did, in the opinion of the Four cording the evidence, followed the usual Lords, give rise to unfavourable interprepractice of judges and magistrates, we can- tations. Judge, then, to what a pitch we, not help lamenting that they did not think in this country, carry our notions of female it necessary to put down and report the decorum : questions as well as the answers. Lord The word ONLY seems, however, to Ellenborough appears to have thought, that take the sting completely out of this part he and his coadjutors had been charged of Mrs. Lisle's evidence; for, if she had with a falsification of evidence; a suppres meant by the word flirting, any thing crision of evidence ; but, really, I did not so minal, any thing vicious, any thing indeunderstand Mr. Whitbread. I understood cent, any thing gross, any thing indecohim simply to say; that, if the questions rous, any thing improper, she would never as well as the answers, in the case of Mrs. have prefixed to it the word ONLY. She Lisle, had been given, the impression pro- would not have said only criminal, only duced by her evidence, upon the mind of vicious, only indecent, only gross, only inthe reader of it, would be different from decorous, or, only improper ; and, if it was what it must be while nothing but the an- something, which was neither criminal, vi. swers were seen. It seems to have been cious, indecent, gross, indecorous, nor imunderstood, that Mr. Whitbread had proper ; if it was neither of these, in the stated, that the evidence was taken down by name of common sense, what harm was the four Lords in question and answer, there in it; and, in what way could it posand that they put only the answers into the sibly give rise to unfavourable interpretadeposition. But, this is not the way in tions? You see, too, that Mrs. Lisle must which I understood him. I understood have had some question put to her which him to say, that he had obtained a copy drew forth the word ONLY; so that, this of the answers accompanied by the ques- word must be taken to exclude all that is tions ; but, not to say that the questions not included in the word Airting ; and, of had been taken down by the four Lords, course, to shut out every thing of a higher and afterwards suppressed by them; and, cast than that of flirting, which means neiin short, the only points upon which there ther more nor less than bantering. You seems to have been any real difference of yourself are a very sober, grave man, and opinion were these: whether, in the first not at all likely to wink at improper conplace, it was right to put leading questions; duct in any woman, especially a married and whether, in the next place, the ques. woman, though separated froin her husband tions ought not, in this case to have been without any fault of her's; but, would you, given as well as the answers.
if you were told, that such a woman were The defence of the Princess is so com- given to banter, and did actually banter, plete and every way satisfactory upon the with a man in the presence of several other evidence of Mrs. Lisle, that I can hardly women, think it right to give an unfavourthink it necessary for me to say any thing able interpretation to her conduct on that more about it; but, there is one point or account? two on which I cannot refrain from making But, Mrs. Lisle says, as is stated in the a few observations. She says, that “Her deposition (see Register, p. 466), that " she © Royal Highness, behaved to Capt. Manby “ would not have THOUGHT that any " ONLY as any woman would who likes " married woman would have bebaved pro" perly, who behaved as the Princess did | altogether, I think it right to notice a letter, " to Captain Manby.” Now, you will published on the 27th of March by Earl observe, that Mr. Whitbread stated, that Moira, who, as you will have perceived, there was a question put here as to whether has been pretty much concerned in some Mrs. Lisle would have liked to see such part of these transactions. In this letter his conduct in her own daughter, who had just Lordship denies having gone to Lord Eardthen died; and that she replied, that her ley's to seek, amongst the servants there, daughter lived in the same house with her for evidence against the Princess. He ashusband. However, leaving this circum- serts, that the information came first from stance quité out of the question, does not Lord Eardley to the Prince; that the Prince the Princess, in her defence, complain with listened to it reluctantly, that the servauta some reason of having the opinion of Mrs. came to Lord Moira, and he did not go to Lisle, or of any body else, set up against them; that he found their stories unworthy her conduct? When witnesses are called of notice ; that he, therefore, advised the and sworn as to the acts of accused persons, Prince to do nothing in the business; and is it usual to ask the opinions of those wit- that it was his advice and the Prince's denesses as to the nature of those acts ?. Be- sire that no talk should take place on the sides, the opinion here given was in answer subject. to a general question. Any married wo. His Lordship then gives his explanation man; not any married woman living sepul- as to the much more important point; the rated from her husband, which makes all examination, by him, of Messrs. Mills and the difference in the world. For, you will Edmeades, on the subject of the fact stated readily agree, that the bantering ascribed by Fanny Lloyd, respecting what one of to the Princess, the talking more to Captain those gentlemen had said as to the supposed Manby than to the ladies, might be very pregnancy of the Princess. This is a point excusable in a married woman living sepa- of so much consequence, that, in justice to rated from her husband, though it might the character of his Lordship, I shall insert not be so easily excused in one living with the whole of that part of his letter which her husband, and whose duty it would be relates to it. “The interviews with Dr. to avoid every sort of familiarity likely to“ Mills and Mr. Edmeades did not take give that husband the smallest degree of place till between three and four years uneasiness. Mrs. Lisle might very consist. " after the examination of Lord Eardley's ently have thought, that the Princess's con- servants, and had no reference to it. duct to Captain Manby was perfectly inno- "Fanny Lloyd, a maid servant in the cent and right, and yet she might have " Princess's family, had, in an examination thought, that such conduct would not be to which I was not privy, asserted Dr. right in any married woman without excep- “ Mills to have mentioned to her that the tion, and without attention being paid to " Princess was pregnant; a deposition the peculiar circumstances of the case. She " which obviously made it necessary that does not say, you will observé, that such | Dr. Mills should be subjected to examiconduct would, in her opinion, have been nation. This happened to be discussed proper in NO married woman. You will before me; and it was my suggestion pay particular attention to that. She only " that it would be inore delicate to request says, that, such conduct would not, in her " the attendance of Dr. Mills at my trouse, opinion, have been proper in ANY mar- " and to have him meet the Magistrate ried woman without exception; that is to "there, to avoid the publicity and obsersay, that it would not have been, in hervation should be entailed by his being opinion, a conduct proper for all married summoned to the Office in Marlborougha women, meaning, of course, to be under- " street. Dr. Mills came early, and then stood to be speaking of women living as " it was immediately discovered that it was married women generally live.
" his partner, Mr. Edineades, who had Is this splitting of hairs? If it be, the bled Fanny Lloyd, though the latter fault is not mine. Importance has been “ (knowing the Princess's apothecary to be given to trifles, and it is not, therefore, "Dr. Mills, and imagining it was that our fault if we treat them as being impor- " apothecary who had bled her) had contant.
“ founded the names. Dr. Mills was I have now
Dilcounted #tierid, said every - thierefore dismissed, without being exathing to relative to thactes sanāk the Princess of " begged to send Mr. Edmeades on anWales se belote dismiss the subject other morning. Mr. Edmeades cams
accordingly, and was examined before presented itself, to throw an honest doubt " the magistrate. An attempt is made to upon her veracity. Mr. Edmeades was
pervert an observation of mine into an very differently circumstanced. A cha. “ endeavour to make Mr. Edmeades alter" racter for dangerous chattering was abso“his testimony injuriously for the Prin- " lute ruin to him in his profession. He
So far from there being any thing " had the strongest of all motives to exo. " of conciliation in my tone, Mr. Connant nerate himself from the charge, if he
must well remember my remark to have " could hit upon any equivocation by which " been made as a correction of what I " he might satisfy himself in the denial of “ deemed a premeditated and improper " it. And the bearing of my remark must "pertness of manner in Mr. Edmeades. — " not be misunderstood. No man would " It was an unmitigated profession of my " infer any thing against the Princess on " belief that he was using some subterfuge " the ground of such a random guess as "to justify his denial ; a declaration little " that of Mr. Edmeades' must have been, "calculated to win him to pliancy, had I " unless Mr. Edmeades should support his "been desirous of influencing his testimony." proposition by the adduction of valid rea"My conviction on that point remains un- sons and convincing circumstances; but "changed. One or other of the parties " there was a consequence ascribable to it
was wilfully incorrect in their stateinent ; " in its loosest state. His having been if Fanny Lloyd were so, it was down-" sufficiently indiscreet to mention his
spe"right perjury; Mr. Edmeades might . culation to others as well as 10 Fanny " have answered only elusively. I have “Lloyd, would well account for what was "been told that some individual, pointing " otherwise incomprehensible; namely, the "at the direct opposition between the affi- " notion of the Princess's pregnancy so ge"davits of Mr. Edmeades and Fanny“ nerally entertained at Greenwich and in "Lloyd has indicated the preferable cre " that neighbourhood. It was my convic"dit which ought to be given to the oath ' tion that such indiscretion had taken of a well-educated man, in a liberal
place, not any
belief of the fact to which "walk of life, over that of a person in the " it related, that I endeavoured to convey “ humble station of a maid servant. I by remark. -This construction is not " shall not discuss the justice of the prin- put upon the circumstances now, for the “ciple which arbitrarily assumes deficien- as first time. A paper of mine submitted
cy of moral rectitude to be the natural " to His Majesty at the period of the in“inference from humility of condition. “vestigation, and lodged with the other " The inculcation in the present instance" documents relative to that inquiry, re" would have been somewhat more ra
66 buts in the same terms the base attempt " tional, had it advised that, in a case of " of insinuating conspiracy against the “ such absolute contradiction upon a simple" Priocess. Why that paper has not seen “ fact, the comprehension of which could "the light with the other documents may be * have nothing to do with education, you " surmised. I had thought it incumbent “ should consider on which side an obvi- on me, from the nature of the transaction,
ous temptation to laxity appears. Fanny “not to furnish any means for its publica
Lloyd was not merely a reluctant witness," tion from the copy in my possession. " but' had expressed the greatest indigna" The present explanation unavoidably " tion at being subject to examination. "states all the material points contained in "When she swore positively to a circum- " it. But it will be felt by every one that
stance admitting of no latitude, the only " the detail has been extorted from me." "thing to be weighed was, what probabi- I will offer you no remark upon his lity of inducement existed for her swear- Lardship's explanation as
to the point "ing that which she knew to be false. It above dwelt upon. He still gives the pre" will appear that her testimony on that ference to the testimony of Fanny Lloyd ; "point was not consonant to the partiality and it is not for me to express any doubt 4 which she had proclaimed; that by the of his sincerity ; but, I must still be al“other parts of her evidence she was bar- lowed to express my wonder, that, when "ring the way to reward, if any profligate Fanny Lloyd's Declaration was laid before " hopes of remuneration led her to risk the the King amongst the documents confirm"falsekood; and that she could not be in- atory of Lady Douglas's Statement, the op"Huenced by malice against Mr. Ed. posing declarations of Dr. Mills and Mr.
meades, with whom it was clear she Edmeades were not laid before the King " was wacquainted. Nothing, therefore, along with it. The King would then have